create the National Research and Education Network. Obviously not the
internet but it should still get acknowledged.
Mitch
Mitch
Slagging is an excellent way of drawing attention away.
And I hope Kerry wins it.
---A---
---A---
>>GAWD David thats really sad and about psychotic... Dont let the door hit
>>you on the ass as you leave the USA then. Not a single fact either...
>>Liberating 30 million people from an evil dictator is nothing? How many
>>has Saddam killed? 500 million? Oh but they dont matter do they...
>>If we continue this discussion David we will not like each other any
>>longer. Politically we are opposite, neither will convince the other of
>>anything so why destroy a friendship over politics? I posted on this
>>forum accidentally.
>>Mitch
>>>http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>>>Mitch, you're a great guy, but *** Bush and Co. ought to be
>>>tortured/shot/blown up/dismembered/beheaded (instead of others) for
>>>killing
>>>100,000 inncocent men, women and children ("Most individuals reportedly
>>>killed by coalition forces were women and children,") and mutilating tens
>>>of
>>>thousands more for..............nothing.
>>>They lied, and keep on lying.
>>>Sounds rough, but an eye for an eye you know.
>>>--
>>>David G Fisher ---Never more embarrassed to be called an American than in
>>>2004
I love it when people say things like this, and especially when they rip
France and say France wouldn't exist without the USA.
The USA WOULD NOT exist if it weren't for France during the Revolutionary
War.
We conveniently forget that enormously important fact. LOL.
--
David G Fisher
> > The competition on killing innocent people has since long been won by
the
> > US, so your argument is forfeit. Sorry.
> > ---A---
If it wasnt for the Brits during the Battle of Britain the US would not have
had a base from which to launch an invasion. The Luftwaffe was developing a
long range bomber that would reach New York. German scientists were first
to understand the theory of splitting an atom. We can only guess where we
would be today had England and America appeased instead of defended and
attacked. Were at that point now in our War against Terrorists whether you
agree or not.
England was our Enemy during the revolutionary war, what does that have to
do with anything? Had they won the USA wouldnt exist either.
As far as Im concerned France took sides and they did not side with America.
Dave, get on Teamspeak early tomorrow and Ill let you convince me to vote
for Kerry. One honest, valid reason why I should give him my vote.
Mitch
> If it wasnt for the Brits during the Battle of Britain the US would not have
> had a base from which to launch an invasion.
--
Phil
http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/31307.html
Not strictly true: Dutch, Belgian, Polish and original French government
were exiled, but whatever part of their armies they had left after the
Blitzkrieg were put under British command and continued to fight the Germans
throughout the war. Also, there was partisan action against the occupying
forces throughout the Balkan and the north of Spain.
The blunt truth is that, almost without exception, everyone had
underestimated the strike capability of the German army and, more
importantly, that it's new make up and tactics made a mockery of the static
defenses our conservative militaries relied upon.
Which makes it all the more amazing the Germans sought to stop an allied
invasion through a more advanced, yet similar system at the end of the war.
But this as an aside.
Not even the US could have stopped Europe from getting overrun, as it only
really mobilised after Pearl Harbour. That said, without US supplies and
technology the Battle of Britain, while probably still not being lost, would
have become an even more close run thing, crippling Britain even more than
it did.
To tie this all back in to the current situation. If you go comparing the
two conflicts, it does baring in mind that in WWII a fully mobilised nation
with a booming economy, lead by an unsavoury person, struk out and forcibly
claimed territories having the resources it so badly needed to sustain its
growth (and was denied by the Versailles treaties).
In the current situation, the so called leaders of the free world
(individual freedom to organise your life and your society as you see fit
are big concepts in your country, right?), already having and consuming more
resources than they'll ever need, invaded a country on the edge of economic
and social collapse(*) for reasons unknown other than it was lead by an
unsavoury person (those given were later found to be unfounded and we never
believed them in the first place).
Predictably (at least I and 82% of my countrymen predicted it), a swift
military victory was followed by the population and the different factions
in Iraq stabbing their liberators (and I do mean liberators, because, let's
face it, life under Saddam was no bed of roses for the bulk of the
population) in the back and waging a very dirty war on the invading troups
and everyone remotely associated with them. A war which can't be won by
conventional tactics/warfare, BTW.
But, you know, the deed is done and I truly feel sorry for the coalition
troops in the field. In fact, I have never felt worse about being right in
al my life.
Let's just leave it at that. In a year, maybe two, they'll send a Belgian
peacekeeping force in to get drunk with the locals and sort the whole thing
out, don't worry. ;-))
Jan.
=---
(*): the one saving grace about this whole deal is the US invasion stopped
the Saddam regime from possibly playing along with the UN and, after a
while, getting the embargos lifted, thus building up enough resources to
become a real threat.
Just so they don't get ideas *cough* Belgian Congo *cough* Rwanda
*cough* *cough*
rms
Yes they did and for that were ALL grateful even to this day (they were
after all the greatest generation). That said though they were a force with
little ability to wage war against Hitlers war machine.
The Maginauo?? line. What a joke. One of these days Im going to go see all
this wonderful history for myself.
We all know that in hindsight that had Hitler not invaded Russia at that
point in time and continued his chirade with Stalin, things would have been
much different.
The US was a different place in the 30's. Our Federal Gov had almost no
impact on its citizens daily lives compared to today. Isolationism was the
trend of the day.
Although Pearl Harbor is what actually started the war, our war machine was
in full preparations since 36'. The writing was on the wall and may
actually have been promted by FDR's oil embargo of Japan.
The Versailles treaty had about as much tooth as the 17 Sanctions had on
Saddam.
Saddam knew we were coming. A suprise invasion would likely shown us he did
have them. We ALL know he had them at some point because he showed the
world he would not hesitate to use them and did twice.
All the more reason to liberate the Iraqis.
Overwhleming number. I didnt predict that and neither did GW. Id hoped we
would secure the countries borders much quicker to prevent the infiltration
of the insurgents but thats a big country with long borders. War isnt
perfect and its much easier to see mistakes in hindsight. I never for once
assumed the Baath Party would go down without a fight though. I didnt think
they'd have very much support by the avg citizen either.
Having been an 11Bravo Airborne Infantry 82nd AB Div member (Hoooah,
Airborne) I can tell you War for the troop isnt nearly as bad as civilians
may think. Thats why we volunteer and what we train for and expect to
happen :-) Our troops have done a wonderful job in the ME and liberating
30 million while losing 1100 is a victory by any historical standard (most
Soldiers accept death for a noble cause and these Soldiers were heroes).
The Abu-Gharaib incidents while ugly and indefenceable was/is being dealt
with and the perptrators are being punished. This is a War not a hollywood
movie. We didnt cut off anyones head that Im aware of either.
This is why Im so passionate about re-electing GW Bush. This action MUST be
given an opportunity to succeed (or the all the lives lost were wasted) and
I would say at least 4 years. Do you remember the Marshall Plan and how
long it took? IIRC 49'ish till things settled down? I honestly dont think
Kerry (based on his 20 year Senate record) has the m***character or
intestinal fortitude to see this DIFFICULT situation through. Kerry, as
history has shown uses public opinion polls and a *world test* instead of
morals, character and WHATS RIGHT to make his decisions. This is
UN_ACCEPTABLE!
This IS the issue. Oil for Food scam IS a major part of that issue.
Do I agree with Bush on everything? Hardly, but its all about priorities
this election and the War on Terror must be faught with ALL resources. I
dont think the Anti-War crowd fully realize they give strength to our enemy
with this behavior which harms many more people than if we were ALL on the
same side.
PS, very well thought out and framed argument Jan and I did enjoy reading it
:)
You racing Atlanta?
Mitch
Mitch
>> If it wasnt for the Brits during the Battle of Britain the US would not
>> have had a base from which to launch an invasion.
> Not forgetting the Poles, the Free French, the Royal Canadian Air Force,
> etc., and the US nationals who chose to sign up for the RAF, of course. Or
> the various resistance movements in occupied European territories,
> including France. It's not at all fair to say that after France was taken,
> the only people left fighting the Germans were the British (Wales and
> Scotland also having provided aircrew and troops of course).
> --
> Phil
> http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/31307.html
We had terrible chain of command and discipline issues in Rwanda, combined
with idiocy in the field (10 paracommandos surrendered their weapons and
allowed themselves to be butchered... wot?!?). I thought it was pretty bad
watching from sidelines, then this Canadian General came out and told the
inside story and I found out it was about 10 times as bad as I thought. Not
good, not good at all and, I'm ashamed to say, not many heads rolled for it
at the court martials here.
Ok, so Rwanda was a spectacular***-up, but remind me what, in a military
sense, we did wrong in Congo?
Jan.
=---
Mitch I can't say I agree with that statement one bit. What you are
suggesting is that we should all accept what our governments tell us and
that by not doing so we are somehow fuelling the terrorists' struggle.
Come on now. That's what all governments would love, to have the
population blindly accept that they are doing the right thing, all the
time.
There's currently a serial documentary running over here in the UK,
called 'The Power of Nightmares' which goes into great detail about how
governments of the day (and mainly focusing on the US) have used this
fear of an evil enemy to direct everybody's focus so that the country
doesn't become too weak and ineffectual. In order to do so they have to
keep feeding this fear to the masses that they are all under attack or
liable to be attacked at any moment.
9/11 was a sad day indeed, but since that day how many attacks have
there been on the US? And how much of what went before was because of
Saddam Hussein and Iraq?
The US and the UK have manipulated what happened on 9/11 to inject fear
into their people. To create a kind of paranoia almost that we were on
the verge of terrorist attack after terrorist attack. Do you really
believe that to be the case? And do you really believe that Iraq was
potentially behind what had already taken place and is likely to insue
in the future?
Unfortunately I don't and it disappoints me that governments of this day
can feel that they can get away with 'lying' so blatently about such
things. It sure shows what they think of their people. They don't even
think they're worth telling the truth to. Let's give them plenty of
sleepless nights and they'll go along with anything we tell them. Now
that's what I call frightening.
--
Pete Ives
Remove All_stRESS before sending me an email
>>Not strictly true: Dutch, Belgian, Polish and original French government
>>were exiled, but whatever part of their armies they had left after the
>>Blitzkrieg were put under British command and continued to fight the
>>Germans throughout the war. Also, there was partisan action against the
>>occupying forces throughout the Balkan and the north of Spain.
> Yes they did and for that were ALL grateful even to this day (they were
> after all the greatest generation). That said though they were a force with
> little ability to wage war against Hitlers war machine.
The Magino line (no, I don't know how to spell it either, but that's
what I remember from school) was actually really fantastically well
constructed, with one oversight. The French believed that Hitler would
respect Holland's and Belgium's declarations of independence, and did
not build the line along the border with Belgium. Hitler ignored the
declarations, swept through Holland and Belgium, and swept up the Magino
line from the one direction it did not expect attack - behind.
--
Phil
http://www.usefilm.com/photographer/31307.html
A population in fear is far easier to rule than a clear-thinking one,
and after the demise of the "communist empire" a void clearly needed
filling.
Cheers,
uwe
--
mail replies to Uwe at schuerkamp dot de ( yahoo address is spambox)
Uwe Schuerkamp //////////////////////////// http://www.schuerkamp.de/
Herford, Germany \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ (52.0N/8.5E)
GPG Fingerprint: 2E 13 20 22 9A 3F 63 7F 67 6F E9 B1 A8 36 A4 61