Tom
Tom
I was impressed...it was a great show and obviously the drivers were
experienced race car drivers. The fact that those guys could pull off a
race start the way they did was a testimony to their professional driving.
But, it was apparent pretty soon after the start of the race, that these
guys were not experienced road racing drivers. I didn't know about the
tires......that makes a lot of sense because I couldn't figure out why so
many of the driver's seemed to set their cars up to slide like that.
It was a terrific race......and the series can be proud of the race they put
on at Watkins! In my opinion, at least. NBC certainly got their money's
worth with that broadcast.
Tom
You are not alone. Most every new driver in a "licensing school" has the
same thoughts about being a moving chicane. I guess it comes from the fear
of being actually out on the race track to start with.....with other
experienced race drivers....for the very first time. I know I thought the
same as you.....before I went through the SCCA race licensing school. But,
its one of the first lectures you get in those schools.....at least all the
ones I've seen.
Usually on the afternoon session of "day one" of race licensing school is
when passing is first allowed by the students. The lecture usually comes
just before the group is let go on the track (along with the lecture about
sweeping your dash and your mirrors with your eyes regularly....and fully
understanding the flags and what they mean). Even so....it seems many
drivers don't understand the passing/being passed "rules of the road" until
they***up during a race. That's what I meant by "seems like common
sense to me"......to let the drivers who are faster than you decide how,
when and where they will pass you. Of course, they also have a
responsibility to you (the driver being overtaken) to pass you safely and in
a way that doesn't***up your lap either! I've seen more than my share
of drivers who are overtaking another driver do some pretty stupid things,
too! So, there is another side to this coin.....as well.
Tom
Dave
Sorry Tom - guess the topic fooled me...
--
ed_
| Thom....
|
| I tell you....I very easily could have been watching a PapyLoop replay.
| Because these guys were all pretty much rookie road course drivers (there
| were a few exceptions)....it was more like N4 pick-up racing at
| Watkins.....than not. You just don't see the WC drivers doing those kinds
| of stupid things.......although they are not beyond stupid driving errors
| either (like Dale Jarrett's "move" near the end of the race today that put
| him in the T1 sand trap for the second time.....trying to stick a nose
under
| Martin....under braking...into T1...AFTER Martin had already started
toward
| the apex......then Jarrett realizes his mistake and wheel-hops the car
into
| the side of Martin....that was S.T.U.P.I.D. in a big way.....and he
admitted
| it in the post-race interview).
|
| When you are coming up through the ranks in real-world racing....you
usually
| only make those stupid kinds of mistakes once or twice....before you
vividly
| learn your lesson. Usually, "you" are paying the bills for race car
| repairs......or the hospital bills for your repair....early in your
career!
| These things have a remarkable ability to wise you up! You know?
|
| But in sim racing online.....we don't have any racing schools......we
don't
| have a race licensing program.....and we don't have the ability to
interface
| with our fellow drivers immediately following an online race.....at least
| not one that allows for very effective communication. And, we don't have
to
| pay for car damage repair or hospital bills! We also don't have officials
| who call you to the "Chief Steward's trailer" at the end of a race (been
| there, done that....a few times and its not a fun experience you want to
| repeat). That in particular...is one thing I really miss about racing on
| the old TEN server system. The chat rooms were somehow more
"lively"....and
| discussions about the races afterwards were more prevalent. VROC does a
| better job of that than the Sierra.com system does.....because not all the
| drivers of a race exit to the same chat room after the race is over. And,
| most of the races I've run in.....nobody hangs around in the race server
to
| use that chat room capability....at least not often and not usually the
| drivers who need talking to.
|
| It would be great if we had a newsgroup just dedicated to discussing
racing
| incidents....."rules of the road" for racing on the various types of
tracks
| (those are the un-official rules that every driver follows - sort of a
pact
| made with all fellow drivers).....and official racing rules and
procedures.
| But then....how would we get the word out to rookie online drivers about
| this newsgroup? That's a problem.
|
| Tom
|
|
|
---
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My uncle grew up in that area... he flipped his car over at WG a long time
ago. The glenn is really cool, the track and the park :)
-Adam
I think that may be something a little different than the "move over"
mistake you mentioned... could you elaborate? What if the only way
you can let someone by you is to get out of the preferred line?
In the real world we have hand-signals for conveying this kind of
information, while in N4, we have to settle for broadcast messages
which are in little bitty letters at the very tops of our screens,
that may or may not have come from any cars in our immediate vicinity.
Do you think animated hand signals would be useful in N4? Maybe some
way to only get in-race chat from cars that are within a certain time
or distance of you on the track. Maybe you could even have autochat
keyed to something that would cause your spotter to tell spotters for
the other cars to tell their drivers what your intentions are.
Maybe not, it'd probably just be a cacophony of "The driver of the 137
car would like to let you know he thinks you're number one..."
Gerald Moore
Perhaps, but not by much!
Say "hi" to TC for me.....I forgot about him "doing the SoloII Nationals"
for about a zillion years. He was doing those when I first met him in 1986.
Tom Pabst
PS: I learned about 500 other "lessons" from TC....he's a good guy!
Tom
Pointing faster cars by you is a luxury of real world racing......and one we
don't have in sim racing. Even in real world racing....not everyone uses
the "point" signal....all the time! On road courses.....there's often just
not enough time to do this, anyway.
I should also point out that even when someone "points" you......if you
don't know the driver.....you tend to use the same caution in passing as if
they didn't "point" you. I can't tell you how many times I had rookie
drivers in SCCA point me to the left....then go left! You'd go talk to
these yoyo's after the race......and you'd usually get something like,
"Well, I was pointing to where I was going to go so you could go the other
way!" Yikes!
"Moving out of the preferred line" is almost never necessary. In fact, when
I see a driver "out of the line" I'm not sure if he's there because he
intends me to pass, or he doesn't know what the preferred line is, or he's
not good enough to keep his car in the preferred line. All of those put
elements of doubt in my mind that this guy is going to stay put when I go
around him. Most of the time, if you are running with the leaders....on
road courses anyway, your closing speed on back markers is fairly
fast....and you don't have the opportunity to follow the guy for several
turns to see why he's not in the preferred line. So.....this leaves us
still......with the most consistent behavior being the best behavior when
being passed by leaders. Drive the line you always drive....let them go
around you......when, where, and how they want to.
It would be possible to have some kind of "turn signal like" device on the
rear of the race cars.....flashing activated by controller "buttons" on your
wheel.....that would work. It might not be too realistic for any type of
racing except sports cars......(they normally use brake lights and in the
showroom stock series events...they even use turn signals).....but I'd be
all for using them whether they were realistic or not. I have always said
that braking indicators (lets not call them brake lights, per se) and turn
indicators..... would be useful "crutches" for online sim racing at
least.....to help with the lack of depth perception via the two dimensional
monitor we have to use in sim racing. This usually brings loud cries of
"foul" from the purists sim racers......but I still think its a great
"option" to have for online racing. Remember, one of the cool things about
running Viper Racing....was the cars all had brake lights (there some "not
cool" things about Viper Racing too)....and you didn't see as many guys
getting rear ended in Viper Racing as you did the other sims. I think the
brake lights played a significant role in this.
If you want to watch a lot of passing.....and a lot of good application of
the "hold your line" rule.....watch an ALMS race or a Grand American race on
TV. With the different classes.....the prototypes pass the GT
cars....several times every lap. If you are a GT driver....you can't spend
your whole day "pointing" the prototypes by you....you know? The drivers in
those series are by far....the best at the application of the "hold your
line" rule on being passed by faster cars. Not that you don't see the
occasional mistake.....but considering the amount of passing going on with
multiple car classes on the track together......its a pretty good testimony
to the basic rule.
Tom
Dave
Eldred
--
Dale Earnhardt, Sr. R.I.P. 1951-2001
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
F1 hcp. +16.36...Monster +366.59...
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Seriously......the "passing rule" requires knowledge of and correct
execution of......the rule by "both" participants....that means
"passee...AND passer." There's no shortage of dumb-asses in the fast group
of rookies in sim racing either.
If anyone tells you that the slower driver must yield the racing
line.....you can suggest they go take another racing school and learn the
passing rules correctly this time.
The only time you should be "out of the racing line" to allow cars to pass
is when you are limping a damaged race car back to your pit. That situation
is not what we are talking about here. In that case, you are not running
anywhere near competitive lap speeds.....which is the case with back markers
who are still racing....but just slower than the leaders.
Of course, like all "rules of thumb" which is what this is......"good
judgment" must be a part the equation. As you gain more experience in
racing.....you can use good judgment to know when to "alter" the rules of
thumb. But rookie drivers don't have the experience yet to be able to rely
on their good judgment (usually)....so you don't want to teach them a
rule...and then make them learn all the "good judgment exceptions" to
it....its just not productive.
But, just for discussion purposes, here's an example of a "judgment call" I
have made many times....an alteration of the "passing rule" if you would
like to call it that:
I raced at Portland International Raceway for most of my SCCA racing
career. We used the "Festival Turns" chicane often. The race group I ran
in for my GT racing included GT1, GT2 and GT3 cars. All basically with the
same or similar chassis....differing by horsepower of the engines (actually,
classed by weight-to-horsepower ratios). I ran both GT3 and GT2 cars.
Those cars were as fast or faster than most of the GT1 cars....through the
"back course" at PIR (Turn 1 thru the exit of Turn 5). On occasion, some of
the faster GT1 cars from Hufaker racing down at Sears Point would venture up
to PIR for a National race weekend. Those guys were "fast"
everywhere....including the back course at PIR. If...in the last 1 to 3
laps of a race, I observed the GT1 leaders (especially these fast guys from
Hufaker Racing....guys like Steve Petty for example) crossing the S/F as I
was under braking into the Festival Turns....I knew that they'd be on my
rear bumper accelerating out of the Festival Turns down to T1. If I did
nothing and just kept racing....chances are they'd be held up by me all the
way through the "back course"...and that's about 30 to 35 seconds of a 1
minute plus lap. In the early and mid parts of the race.....that would just
be tough s...t and they could wait and go around me on the back straight.
But in the closing laps (particularly if I was running solo and not directly
racing for a position)....what I would do is this:
I would accelerate more slowly coming out of the Festival Turn. As
soon as I saw the GT1 cars come around the inside cement barrier, I would
stay to the left of the track....and starting waiving my hand continuously
to go by me on the right.....I'd be hugging the left-side white line all the
way. Now....here's the perspective from the GT1 car***pits: As they come
around the Festival Turn dog leg....they see a GT3 car on the left....with
the driver constantly pointing right......as they were rapidly closing the
distance.....the constant pointing....and the car position well out of the
inside racing line.....gave them confidence that I intended to let them get
by me to the right...... before we got into the back course. I would stay
on the track-left white line....constantly waiving/pointing to the
right.....until both cars were by me.
I must have done this dozens of times in my racing career at PIR and never
had a single problem with it. Usually, I'd get one or both of the drivers
come over to my pit after the race and thank me for letting them through
before the back course in the closing laps.
Those of you who know PIR will have no problem understanding the above. If
you don't know PIR....then I should tell you that this part of the race
track was a very safe place to do this....as opposed to doing it on the
straight before the Festival Turns.....or after entering the back course.
So, there's a case where I was a back marker, still racing.......but I moved
out of the racing line to allow the leaders through in a safe spot....and in
a spot that would have a minimum impact on the final laps of their race!
This is a good example of using experience and good judgment to make an
exception to the rule of not moving out of the racing line.
[This is also an example of what I have come to learn all top level race
drivers do. They constantly sweep their mirrors ...as well as their dash
instruments....in a regular rhythm and sequence...every lap of the race.
They are as aware of the race situation behind them....as they are in front
of them. This becomes a subconscious, automatic thing for every good
driver. It is one of the elements.....a habit....that when you first posses
it.....that marks the end of your rookie racing status.]
Regards,
Tom