rec.autos.simulators

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

Gregor Vebl

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by Gregor Vebl » Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:00:00




> >Rereading his post I still believe he meant what I wrote. Turning into a
> >spin or a turn means doing what would normally cause to enhance the spin
> >or tighten the turn; just that it works the opposite way in this case.

> Yes, I mean exactly what you explainer, Andrew.  Thanks for putting
> physics behind it :-)

> Richard.
> --
> Richard Bellavance                     Enter-Net Inc.
>                                        Phone:  (450) 652-7189 #16
> Systems Administrator/                         (514) 990-1683 #16
>   Analyst-Programmer                   Fax:    (450) 652-6973

Ahem, you probably mean Gregor :).

-Gregor

Richard Bellavan

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by Richard Bellavan » Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:00:00


>Ahem, you probably mean Gregor :).

D'oh !  Yes I do...  Blame it on lack-of-morning-coffee.  Sorry !!

Richard.
--
Richard Bellavance                     Enter-Net Inc.
                                       Phone:  (450) 652-7189 #16
Systems Administrator/                         (514) 990-1683 #16
  Analyst-Programmer                   Fax:    (450) 652-6973

JTW620

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by JTW620 » Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:00:00

  **Warning---Oversimplification, but basically true--**

  Can I jump in here?  My 2 bits:  

  When you've entered and stabalized in a turn, the front wheels are pointing
one direction and moving a slightly different direction (same for the rears,
but forget about that for now).  The difference between the directions is the
slip angle as you probably already know.  

  The tire makes the most cornering force at one particular slip angle
(basically true for many racing tires, and an oversimplification, yada yada
yada, etc.).  This means if you straighten out the wheel a little, there's less
force pushing sideways at the front and magically, you straighten out a little
and follow a bigger curve.  But this also means that if you turn the wheel MORE
than optimum, you generate less sideforce (generally) and you follow a bigger
curve too!  

  Crank the wheel on your family car all the way to one side while cruising at
50mph through your neighborhood grocer's parking lot (ok, don't, bad idea).  It
won't turn as tightly as it would if you used "just the right amount" of
steering input.  

  As for the power wanting to make the car straighten out, this is from weight
transfer off the front end.  There's less force pushing down on the front
tires, so there's less force sideways too.  You straighten out a little.

  This is true when you're oversteering as well.

* Remember, don't turn the wheel far enough and you don't turn as tightly.
Turn the wheel too far, and you don't turn as tightly either.  You need "just
the right amount".  

  Make sense?    
Todd Wasson :-)
(Pardon my intrusion!)

Rand

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by Rand » Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:00:00

but does this work on a real car?

On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:51:19 +0200, Gregor Veble



>> Hi Gregor,

>> I thought Richard meant to turn the wheels in the direction your rear wheels
>> are spinning, so that if your rear wheels lose grip and spin to the right
>> (counter-clockwise) you turn your front wheels "in the same direction", i.e.
>> to the right, or, clockwise.

>> I guess this isn't what he meant, but this is what we did in the tiny sprint
>> cars!

>> Andrew

>Rereading his post I still believe he meant what I wrote. Turning into a
>spin or a turn means doing what would normally cause to enhance the spin
>or tighten the turn; just that it works the opposite way in this case.

>But that's not really the point, the point is that when a spin is past
>normal recovery, if you put even more steering lock (not opposite, but
>into the turn), the car will slovly recover contrary to expectations.
>Parabolica is a very good place to test this. This mostly applies to
>spins that occur during braking, though, but can also be helpful when
>you overcook it on acceleration sometimes. Try it and be amazed, just as
>I was when I first tried it out. It's elementary physics, and it works.

>-Gregor

To email me remove the "u"s
Brett C. Camma

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by Brett C. Camma » Thu, 08 Jun 2000 04:00:00

On Wed, 07 Jun 2000 13:51:19 +0200, Gregor Veble


>But that's not really the point, the point is that when a spin is past
>normal recovery, if you put even more steering lock (not opposite, but
>into the turn), the car will slovly recover contrary to expectations.
>Parabolica is a very good place to test this. This mostly applies to
>spins that occur during braking, though, but can also be helpful when
>you overcook it on acceleration sometimes. Try it and be amazed, just as
>I was when I first tried it out. It's elementary physics, and it works.

Interestingly, that's exactly where I tried it (out of necessity...
<g>).  I didn't catch it soon enough, but it did arrest yaw so that I
came to a stop at less than 90 degrees from the desired direction of
travel.  I shall have to train myself to respond as such in "oh shit!"
situations.  Even if I don't manage a full recovery with it, perhaps
it will minimize lost time when in a race and preserve a position or
two.

Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL

Doug Millike

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by Doug Millike » Fri, 09 Jun 2000 04:00:00


Haven't tried this stunt in a long time.  With a c.1970 Chevy station wagon
it was very impressive.  Note that this car had: rear drive, skinny high
pressure tires, weight distribution probably 55% front (a guess, but it had
a long rear overhang), and lots of steering lock angle, maybe 45 degrees,
(since it had a long wheelbase).  Much more steering lock angle than is now
typical with front drive cars, where the CV joints limit the angularity.

We did it on a skid pad (fancy name for a flat parking lot, closed to other
traffic) at about 60 mph.  That big wagon rolled (leaned) a bit but went
almost straight.  It was important to get the steering in quickly...
Smoked the front tires (but they belonged to someone else -- the best
kind!)

I have no idea if you could actually pull this off with a real GP car from
the mid-1960's or not -- those little cars had pretty low rotational
inertia (aka, "polar moment of inertia", about the vertical axis), so they
turn pretty quickly...and I'll bet the steering wheel torque is a _lot_
higher than with a game steering wheel.

-- Doug
                Douglas Milliken
                Milliken Research Associates Inc.

JTW620

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by JTW620 » Fri, 09 Jun 2000 04:00:00

  >Haven't tried this stunt in a long time.  With a c.1970 Chevy station wagon

  That had to be a lot of fun!  By the way Mr. Milliken, I received your book,
"Race Car Vehicle Dynamics" and give it a two big thumbs up!!  Great work, sir!
Todd Wasson
Performance Simulations

Gregor Vebl

GPL.. good, but it doesn't model everything...

by Gregor Vebl » Fri, 09 Jun 2000 04:00:00


> Interestingly, that's exactly where I tried it (out of necessity...
> <g>).  I didn't catch it soon enough, but it did arrest yaw so that I
> came to a stop at less than 90 degrees from the desired direction of
> travel.  I shall have to train myself to respond as such in "oh shit!"
> situations.  Even if I don't manage a full recovery with it, perhaps
> it will minimize lost time when in a race and preserve a position or
> two.

> Regards,
> Brett C. Cammack
> That's Racing! Motorsports
> Pompano Beach, FL

Exactly, it is most useful in races. What I've learned to do is to first
apply opposite lock once I start spinning, if this works it's OK, but if
there is no effect, I quickly turn the wheel the other way and it is
usually enough. Think of it as an all-else fails situation, and it
quickly becomes second nature. It helped a lot in online races so far,
especially Zandvoort in the two slowest corners.

-Gregor


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