rec.autos.simulators

The game is probably a lot of fun in multiplayer, which I have not
tried yet. After all, it will be a relief to play a game where contact
is expected in the turns, after all of the problems with first-lap
crashes in GPL! Human intelligence will also be a relief after
experiencing the game's lame attempts at "AI".

It is my contention that there is actually no "AI" in the game at all.
Instead, the other cars pretty much go along pre-set lines at pre-set
speeds. Maybe there is some randomness when they happen to collide, but
this is not the same as "AI". For example, one particular car will run
the entire race along the high line, while another will be taking the
inside line and run up onto the inner curbing. They almost never vary
from this. Passing them means staying out of their line, as they do not
tend to move over or react to you in any way. Someone has also noted
that the other cars always finish approximately in the order of their
car numbers -- little excuse for this level of predictability.

There are also too few crashes. Anyone who has ever attended a short-
track race knows how long it can sometimes take to get the first lap of
the feature race completed! I wouldn't want to simulate this too
closely, but a major pileup once in a while would be fun.

The "fantasy track" issue doesn't bother me too much since most dirt
tracks are only locally known and there is a certain sameness to them.
OTOH, I think I ran at a track last night in Iowa with what looked like
the Rocky Mountains in the background. That's what I call a fantasy!

Some of the other touches are really good, such as the way the groove
is different from the heats to the final, and can change during the
race. I doubt, however, that there's enough depth to the game to keep
me interested for long in single-player mode. The real fun has to be in
multiplayer, which I'll be sure to try ASAP. I hope there are enough
servers and players available for all classes of racing!

  Doug G

Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
Before you buy.

FWIW, I served as a beta tester, so I've had the game a LOT longer than
most people, but I'm STILL working my way through the career mode. I
think the single-player replayability for this game is very high based
on the level of enjoyment it's given me.  As for the predictability of
the AI cars, it's safe to say that each series has it's own Scott
Bloomquist equivalent, as well as a Hiro Matsushita equivalent, and
everything in-between, so the finishes are bound to be similar from
race to race (just like in the real world).  There could be more
crashes, and the yellow flags DEFINITELY need work, but I've seen cars
tangle and roll, and I've seen yellows fly when that happens, so all
the right elements seem to be in place.

Also, on the arcadish vs. realistic physics modeling, we've been doing
various tests on the upcoming patch, and one test involved checking for
a lap record bug -- we were running all the race laps at a very slow
speed, then making sure the last lap was the fastest.  While turning
those slow laps, I had a chance to see how the game "feels" at real-
world speeds (that is, speeds that you'd probably drive a real car at,
with no wheelspin and such).  What amazed me was how realistic the car
felt and handled -- if the Driver demo felt half as good, it would be
touted as the GPL of street racers.

Speaking of GPL, it struck me that DTR seems even more realistic than
GPL in some ways -- many people (better drivers than me, in fact) have
noted that GPL is somewhat unrealistic in that the cars do NOT become
easier to drive as the speeds decrease.  This would be expected in a
modern Indy or F1 sim, where the aero aids at speed tend to make the
car easier to drive than it is at low speed, but in GPL's 1967-era
cars, driving around at slow (street) speeds should be MUCH easier than
driving them at the limit.  In DTR, though, while the cars slide like
crazy at speed and get a lot of wheelspin at full-throttle (the way
they should), they ALSO handle very, very much like normal family
sedans at slower speeds.  VERY impressive -- force yourself to do 10 or
20 laps this way and see what I mean.

All in all, DTR may not be THE most realistic sim ever, but it's very,
VERY good overall, and I think we're both in agreement on this, so I
hope you don't think that I'm attacking you with this message -- I just
wanted to share some of my impressions, too.

- JB

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

<all of it deleted>

John,

After noticing that you are part of Wilshe's latest business
venture, I have to question your ability to provide unbiased
comments.  Were you paid by Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's
company rendered for them? I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments
but am giving you the benefit of the doubt.

Jeff

Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.  Allow me to help sway
your opinion a bit more in my favor (hopefully):

As a tester, I'm DEFINITELY not paid -- it's all volunteer work, and
quite a bit of it, at that (ask my wife).  We sign non-disclosure
agreements, which is why you didn't see any early previews (or even
reviews) on The IRL Insider site.  I'm a sim nut, I love GPL, and I
hold DTR in VERY high esteem.  There are a lot of things right with
this game -- there's definitely room for improvement, but it's one of
the best, especially when you consider its ridiculously-low pricetag.

I do not receive any payment for any reviews that I conduct, and I
desperately try not to steer anybody wrong on anything, whether it's
hardware or software.  I'm a tightwad, and I appreciate frank, truthful
feedback from others, and that's what I try to provide.

Also, FWIW, if someone HAD paid me to say good things about something
like Spirit Of Speed 1937, I would've found good things to say -- BUT I
would have still had to point out the warts, too, and the (sub) NFS-
type physics model.  I'm a tightwad and a cheapskate by nature, and I
never want to spend MY money on a piece of $#!+ that someone has mis-
informed me about, so I do my best to try to give people the straight
scoop.

If anybody would like to PAY me to write good things, my services as a
journalist COULD be purchased, but they'd have to settle for the fact
that I would NOT *** myself for a few bucks, and I would insist
on calling a turkey a turkey, if that's what was necessary.

I really like DTR -- it consumes almost all of my time lately.
I really like GPL -- I still take time to run Mexico every once in a
while (I LOVE that track, for some reason).
I like Viper Racing a LOT -- it's not getting played much, but for a
while, it was #1.
SCGT was fun for a while, but it has failed to hold my interest for
some reason.
ABC Indy Racing was fun because it's really NOT all that bad on a
suitable machine (it's pretty hardware-intensive), and it's the only
thing going if you're an IRL fan with a Win95/98 machine and no
Rendition card.
ICR2 was great in its time (back when I had a Rendition card installed,
and before the Win95 incompatibility became too much of a hassle).
I've tried NFS3 and NFS:HS -- they were fun for an hour of so, but
there's nothing there that really interests me.

I love sims, and I really like DTR a LOT.  My opinions are purely my
own, and it just so happens that as far as DTR is concerned, Don Wilshe
and I are in agreement -- it's a great sim.

And if Hasbro/Microprose cancels GP3, Ratbag may become THE premier sim
producer -- Papy seems to be still resting on their laurels, and as
much as I love GPL, if they don't do something soon besides yet another
NASCAR 2 rehash, there's not going to be much hope for the company as a
whole.

That's my $0.02, FWIW.

-- JB

    Pete

Don Wilshe

paid by > Ratbag for any services that Wilshe's

What company.   ???  your losing me.!!

 I've totally dismissed Wilshe's comments  but am giving you the benefit of
the doubt.

DW

Brit
--
The Artist formerly known as the Mocker

In one of them, I turned in the slowest fast lap (meaning everybody else
turned at least one lap faster than my own fastest lap) at Oldero in a
25-lap race, and I ended up finishing first! <G>  I was slow, but I also
didn't burn off my tires, and that allowed me to stay out in front at the
end.

The physics do feel better with the patch, FWIW -- MUCH more GPL-like.  I've
been running Mexico in GPL the past couple of days after DTR sessions, just
to compare, and I think that whatever they've done to DTR is a major
improvement.  It still may not be GPL-caliber, but it's very, VERY good!

-- JB

Can you expand on that point?  For I'm not sure I agree, and the point
certainly seems counter-intuitive.  Doesn't the simple fact that the faster
you go, the more apt you to go *off* speak against it?  If I want to learn a
course in GPL, I go around slowly--I don't find myself wrestling the wheel
trying to keep tire and tarmac together at those times.

puzzled in Nashville,
David K.

"[snipped a bit]: many people (better drivers than me, in fact) have
noted that GPL is somewhat unrealistic in that the cars do NOT become
easier to drive as the speeds decrease.  This would be expected in a
modern Indy or F1 sim, where the aero aids at speed tend to make the
car easier to drive than it is at low speed, but in GPL's 1967-era
cars, driving around at slow (street) speeds should be MUCH easier than
driving them at the limit."

Re-read my statement, David -- what I was trying to say is that it
SHOULD be MUCH easier to drive around slowly in GPL, but it really
ISN'T all that much easier.

While it definitely IS easier to go *off* at speed or when running
faster, it seems that the realism we get "at speed" in GPL is achieved
at the expense of realistic handling throughout the entire performance
envelope.  For example, at slow speeds, the cars should be pretty darn
stable, just like a real car (albeit a bit more responsive, perhaps),
but they aren't.

I can't recall who it was, but some sim racer whom I hold in fairly
high regard (for some reason, it seems like it might have been the
sysop of the CompuServe Sportsim forum) pointed out that at low speed,
the cars in GPL are as twitchy and unstable as they are at high speed.
Granted, you have a tight, responsive chassis and a lot of horsepower
underfoot, but for the average joe (or jane), it's still virtually
impossible to just cruise around a given track at low speed (in the 30
- 50 mph range, for example).

Like you, I have found that I can just cruise around at low speed, but
it continually amazes me how twitchy the cars in GPL are even at low
speed.  It's not uncommon for me to find myself suddenly spinning
wildly while cruising around slowly trying to learn a new track -- no
matter how delicately I feather the throttle.  Maybe that's the way
1967 GP cars really did handle at low speeds -- I don't know and I
can't say, but it does seem oddly incongruent, given the great physics
at speed.  To me, it almost seems like there's not quite enough grip at
low speed.

In contrast, I've found that at low speed, the cars in DTR do seem to
feel and handle like those mid-70s hunks of American iron that I
learned to drive on -- much more so than what I've seen in games like
the Driver demo, for example (haven't tried the full version of Driver
yet).  Given this, plus the fact that real-world chassis setup tweaks
work so realistically in DTR, I really feel that the physics in DTR may
have a higher level of realism than we're giving it credit for.

I'm not trying to imply that DTR may be more realistic than GPL, but I
do feel that DTR's physics model is very good in its own right.  Also,
regardless of how good it feels, the GPL physics model may not be the
near-perfect an unflawed piece of work we tend to think it is.

Hope this clears up my previous statement a bit.

-- JB

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.

John,

Thanks for your feedback. I find your tastes similar to mine and so
will give Dirt Track Racing a go. In this day of cancellations and
staff cutbacks, we need to support any company willing to give us
something without mainstream compromises.

Jeff

Well, I guess it was the "the cars do NOT become easier to drive as the
speeds decrease" bit that threw me off.

I'll race you for slowest lap around Monaco anytime.  I can do this.

;)

--DK

    I got to watch the Supertrucks qualify for Portland this year and I was
right beside the track.  My thought as I heard them roaring down the
straightway to T1 was that they sounded like VERY pissed off monsters!!  I
actually pictured some kind of dragon in my mind!
    (I know that won't impress any of you WC veterans, but the only WC race
I got to see was Sears Point and I was too far from the track in 1983 to
hear THAT kind of power.  It impressed the HELL out of me hearing those
trucks - can't wait till next year!)

Gunner