rec.autos.simulators

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

Jonny Hodgso

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Jonny Hodgso » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 02:59:52


> I have a hard time believing that an F1 car cannot lock all 4 brakes,
> even at 200mph, if the brake pedal is literally pressed as far down as
> it will go. [snip]

Nope, all the sources I've heard say that this *is* the case.

Bear in mind that the download on the tyres is doubled at
around 70-80 mph due to downforce, so at 160 mph the total
download is around five times the car's weight.

Brake system mechanical advantage is a tradeoff between
stopping power/low pedal effort (which calls for a high
mech adv), and brake 'feel' (which calls for a low mech adv,
giving a firmer pedal).

Since simulator pedals measure distance, not force, "as far
as it will go" is not really meaningful - it depends what
the corresponding maximum programmed pedal force is.

Jonny

Nick

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Nick » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 04:05:28


I think that is a little OTT. At about 100-125 mph the downforce from
aerodynamics is about equal to the weight of the car. It approaches a 2:1
ratio at the top speed of the car. That is according to '99 Ferrari data.

Jonny Hodgso

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Jonny Hodgso » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 06:12:18




> > Bear in mind that the download on the tyres is doubled at
> > around 70-80 mph due to downforce, so at 160 mph the total
> > download is around five times the car's weight.

> I think that is a little OTT. At about 100-125 mph the downforce from
> aerodynamics is about equal to the weight of the car. It approaches a 2:1
> ratio at the top speed of the car. That is according to '99 Ferrari data.

Okay, I was a touch off with my initial estimate for
downforce=weight.  Wings are smaller than they used to be...

That's still a total download of three times the car's static
weight at max speed, which should make it pretty hard to
lock up.

Jonny

jason moy

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by jason moy » Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:05:14


> Okay, I was a touch off with my initial estimate for
> downforce=weight.  Wings are smaller than they used to be...

Yes, but the bigger factor in the reduction of grip in an F1 car are
the grooved tires.

In the pre-grooved tire days, it was very possible for a driver to
lock the brakes if applying too much pressure.  In theory, applying
the correct amount of pressure in order to avoid wheel locking should
be more difficult now that the size of the contact patch has
decreased.

I finally found an article that at least has some reference to this
phenomenon:

http://www.itfl.co.uk/racetech/issue29/f12kbrake.htm

"With the current generation of grooved Formula One tyre, driveability
is a major issue under braking. Aerodynamic downforce is a function of
the square of speed and consequently there is a pronounced drop off as
road speed falls under braking. This reduction in aerodynamic grip
combined with the inferior performance of current grooved tyres
compared to slicks makes it a challenge for the driver to avoid wheel
locking."

If the reason the brakes in F1 2001 do not lock up is the
downforce/grip, then why isn't it possible to lock them in wet
conditions, when grip is significantly reduced?  I can load F1 2001
right now, set the conditions to monsoon, put on hard/cold tires to
minimize the grip, and still not lock the brakes above 80kmh.  Yes, an
increase in grip caused by the extra downforce at high speed will
require extra pressure to be applied to the brakes in order to lock
them, but that is ridiculous.

Still, if you can find an article by an engineer or driver at the F1
level indicating that brakes will not lock above 80kmh, I will gladly
admit defeat in this argument.

Jason

Haqsa

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Haqsa » Thu, 13 Jun 2002 06:00:02

You make some good points, however I doubt very much that the shallow
longitudinal grooves in the tires affect either braking or acceleration,
they should really only affect lateral forces, and even then only
slightly, as can be seen by the fact that lap times have continued to
get faster despite the grooved tires.



Asbj?rn Bj?rnst

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Asbj?rn Bj?rnst » Thu, 13 Jun 2002 10:56:14


> You make some good points, however I doubt very much that the shallow
> longitudinal grooves in the tires affect either braking or acceleration,

Huh?  
Last time I checked (Truth be told, I haven't actually checked.) air
had far less grip than *** or whatever they make tires out of
nowadays.

Again: Huh?
Heard about the friction circle lately?

They probably have made progress engine, suspension, brake, TC, drivetrain,
aero and tire technology since they introduced the grooves. And they use
tires where the grooves have worn down nowadays.
--
  -asbjxrn

Haqsa

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Haqsa » Thu, 13 Jun 2002 11:57:24



> > You make some good points, however I doubt very much that the
shallow
> > longitudinal grooves in the tires affect either braking or
acceleration,

> Huh?
> Last time I checked (Truth be told, I haven't actually checked.) air
> had far less grip than *** or whatever they make tires out of
> nowadays.

Area isn't what makes traction, tread stability is what makes traction.
Or rather, lack of tread stability is what causes loss of traction.  On
a perfectly stable undistorted tire tread the friction coefficient would
be constant and the force you get would not depend on tread area.  On a
real tire that friction coefficient gets reduced by tread distortion
caused by everything from inflation pressure to uneven loading to tread
depth and shape.

Ever taken a class in vehicle dynamics?  Ever work in the auto industry?
I am well acquainted with vehicle handling and dynamics from both a
scholastic and a professional point of view.  You OTOH are not, you are
just mouthing things you have read on the internet.  Read my explanation
of tread stability above and then sit and ponder what longitudinal
grooves would do to that.  Sit and ponder for a LONG time please.

Asbj?rn Bj?rnst

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Asbj?rn Bj?rnst » Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:44:40





> > > You make some good points, however I doubt very much that the shallow
> > > longitudinal grooves in the tires affect either braking or acceleration,

> > Huh?
> > Last time I checked (Truth be told, I haven't actually checked.) air
> > had far less grip than *** or whatever they make tires out of
> > nowadays.

> Area isn't what makes traction, tread stability is what makes traction.
> Or rather, lack of tread stability is what causes loss of traction.  On
> a perfectly stable undistorted tire tread the friction coefficient would
> be constant and the force you get would not depend on tread area.  On a
> real tire that friction coefficient gets reduced by tread distortion
> caused by everything from inflation pressure to uneven loading to tread
> depth and shape.

Point taken, a slick will lose (some/most) of it's grip if you cut
lots of razor thin lines in it because the many small parts of ***
won't be as stable as the solid "block" even though the area is the
same. And since the threads don't break up the tire longitudinally,
they should affect grip much.
But the increased area would also give a lower pressure in the
tire/tarmac contact patch. I thought that would increase the friction
coefficient? My memory claims that it used to work that way in the
past. OTOH that memory is probably hearsay, although from somewhat
credible people. Isn't that why you want big slicks, not just slicks?

You're right of course. It was a uneccesarily sarcastic answer, even
more so since as you say, I don't really know what I am mouthing off
about. I'm sorry about that.

What does actually thread (in)stability mean? Is it related to the
contact patch shape only or does "flex" from the contact patch to the
bottom of the thread matter? What about a round (Motor)bike tire where
the center of the tire is longer than the edges?

Aren't the threads so far apart that the "slick" parts between them
should be stable? (Depends on what thread stability is of course.) I
don't know the dimensions, but it looks like well over an inch.
--
  -asbjxrn

Haqsa

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Haqsa » Fri, 14 Jun 2002 07:58:00


Yes, lower pressure leading to higher friction coefficient is generally
true in a practical sense, but I believe the mechanism causing this is
still tread distortion.  IOW if you take an unstressed chunk of ***
and put an even pressure across it, the friction coefficient will be the
same no matter what the pressure is (unless it gets into sliding
friction, more about that below).  Put that same chunk of *** on a
tire that changes shape depending on the pressure, and now the traction
coefficient changes (I'm old school, we used to refer to traction
coefficients for tires to emphasize the fact that it does not work
exactly like classical friction).

Apology accepted, and I'm sorry I jumped on you so hard.  The classy
thing to do would have been to ignore you.  ;o)  What can I say, I was
tired.

Okay, you probably already know some of this, but bear with me so I can
explain it fully.  Because tires are made of a flexible material, they
stretch when you pull on them.  So when a piece of tire rotates through
the contact patch, and there is a force applied to the tire, the
material stretches as it passes through the contact patch, and then
snaps back as it comes out of the contact patch.  This makes it appear
like the tire is always slipping, so under acceleration or braking we
have a slip ratio, and in cornering we have a slip angle.  This
stretching occurs not just in the tire carcass itself, but also in the
tread elements.  The first thing that greater tread stability
accomplishes is to reduce this slippage.  So slicks will not go to as
high a slip angle as a fully treaded tire, or as high a slip ratio in
acceleration or braking.  But here is the first part of my premise - I
don't think a longitudinal groove in the tire will have much of an
affect on the distortion of the tire under acceleration or braking, so I
don't think the slip ratio will change in those situations.  Also, since
there is so little material that has been removed, I don't even think it
will have a big effect on the slip angle behavior in cornering.  It is
hard for me to see how those small grooves and some slight additional
thickness in the *** between them will change the amount that the
tread stretches when a force is applied to it.

But slip behavior and traction are not the same thing, admittedly.  I am
not a tire expert, but I have looked at a fair amount of data and worked
with some simulations, and I have formed an opinion on what is going on.
And BTW my opinion is fairly similar to a number of SAE papers I have
read, so there is at least a slim possibility that I might be right.
;o)  If you look at a tire, with or without tread, you can mentally or
computationally cut it up into small elements, calculate the forces on
those elements, and add them up to get the full force.  Each element
that is towards the center of a tread block is going to be fairly
stable.  As you get towards the edges the elements will start to bend
significantly when force is applied.  Also each element will have a
slightly different normal force applied to it.  Now under classic
friction theory, as long as we are talking about static friction, the
coefficient is constant.  That being the case, I could distribute the
load any way I wanted to over these elements and the total lateral force
they generate should come out the same.  BUT, if the normal force gets
too low, and the element is free to move, it will behave more like
sliding friction than static friction.  That is exactly what I would
expect to happen at the edge of a tread block, especially if the force
is applied transversely to that edge.  Since sliding friction
coefficients are generally lower than static friction coefficients,
these elements are no longer doing a proportionate amount of the work,
and the overall traction is decreased.  That could also happen if the
tire were simply so distorted at some point that a part of the tire had
insufficient pressure on it to maintain static friction.  This is what
happens at the rear of the contact patch as you approach loss of
traction.  It is also what happens with improper inflation pressure, or
incorrect camber angle.  Basically the more even the pressure across the
contact patch, the more likely that the entire contact patch is doing
its job.

If I understand your question correctly then yes, and that is exactly
why I think it has little effect.  The grooves are spaced widely apart,
and the tread between them is not very tall, therefore it should be very
stable still.

I know that was kind of a long winded explanation and I didn't really
take the time to proof read it very well.  I hope it made some sense.
Please feel free to ask more questions if it does not make sense.  I may
get grouchy occasionally, but I honestly do not mind a well intended
question.  ;o)

Jonny Hodgso

I can't lock up the breaks in F1 2002

by Jonny Hodgso » Sat, 15 Jun 2002 22:25:17


> If the reason the brakes in F1 2001 do not lock up is the
> downforce/grip, then why isn't it possible to lock them in wet
> conditions, when grip is significantly reduced?  I can load F1 2001
> right now, set the conditions to monsoon, put on hard/cold tires to
> minimize the grip, and still not lock the brakes above 80kmh.  Yes, an
> increase in grip caused by the extra downforce at high speed will
> require extra pressure to be applied to the brakes in order to lock
> them, but that is ridiculous.

> Still, if you can find an article by an engineer or driver at the F1
> level indicating that brakes will not lock above 80kmh, I will gladly
> admit defeat in this argument.

Well, I don't have the time currently to go digging through my pile
of Race Techs, but I'll stick to my belief that it's impossible to
lock the wheels at high speed.  Where the cut-off speed is, I'm
not sure; I don't have F1 2001 so can't comment directly.

I'd expect pedal advantage to have remained fairly low, though,
since Al-Be(?) calipers were outlawed as the reduced caliper
stiffness affected modulation.

Jonny


rec.autos.simulators is a usenet newsgroup formed in December, 1993. As this group was always unmoderated there may be some spam or off topic articles included. Some links do point back to racesimcentral.net as we could not validate the original address. Please report any pages that you believe warrant deletion from this archive (include the link in your email). RaceSimCentral.net is in no way responsible and does not endorse any of the content herein.