rec.autos.simulators

Airborne in GPL?

colin bro

Airborne in GPL?

by colin bro » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

hehe - an Auzzie defending the Queens English.

you sound more like a whinging pom there mate...

(English is a modern dynamic language, constantly evolving and
changing in a possitive way, not because of its 'guardians' like you
but IN SPITE OF YOU and your efforts to stifle growth and change.)

stuff that in yer didgeredoo and smoke it bruce.  :-p

col.

On Mon, 3 Apr 2000 07:44:40 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"


>Who cares, Phil?  I do, because although "English as she is writ" might be a
>bastardised mongrel of a language it should still be used correctly, NG or
>not.  The mere fact that newsgroups comprise 99.99999% written English
>should be sufficient to support that statement.

>We all make typographical errors....but there is a vast difference between a
>typo and illiteracy and it is the latter that I find disappointing when it
>is repetitive and comes from a resident of an English-speaking country.

>(There is also the side benefit to those of non-English-speaking
>nationalities where their knowledge of English can be supported when they
>know the correct spelling of a word and the correct grammatical structure of
>a sentence. Unless genuine spelling errors are pointed out, how will they
>ever know what is correct or not?)

>Sorry Phil, but I love the English language and get great pleasure out of
>reading not only well-crafted statements but also those that are spelt
>correctly. If that's a crime, tough.
>--
>Regards,
>Bruce Kennewell,
>Canberra, Australia.
>---------------------------



>> Tyres, tires
>> Bales, bails

>> Who cares?  It's the meaning that counts in newsgroups Bruce !

>> Cheers,
>> Phil


>> > Stay back after school, young Tony......

>> > your = you're
>> > bail = bale

>> > --
>> > Regards,
>> > Bruce Kennewell,
>> > Canberra, Australia.
>> > ---------------------------



>> > > go flying into the turn after the esses at full speed and lose control
>and
>> > BAM
>> > > your in the haybail and over the wall. =)

colin bro

Airborne in GPL?

by colin bro » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

you want to KILL a great Language - keep on as you are dude!
colin bro

Airborne in GPL?

by colin bro » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

wtf - these posts arn't in the correct thread - SHITE

sorry folks

:)

col

colin bro

Airborne in GPL?

by colin bro » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

too busy flaming to get the message in the right place....
colin bro

Airborne in GPL?

by colin bro » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

hehe - an Auzzie defending the Queens English.

you sound more like a whinging pom there mate...

(English is a modern dynamic language, constantly evolving and
changing in a possitive way, not because of its 'guardians' like you
but IN SPITE OF YOU and your efforts to stifle growth and change.)

stuff that in yer didgeredoo and smoke it bruce.  :-p

col.

On Tue, 4 Apr 2000 21:21:37 +1000, "Bruce Kennewell"


>Fair enough, Joona.
>I agree that people seldom deliberately misspell words...unless they are
>trying to stir the pot, of course!

>I can also appreciate that my personal attitude towards correcting errors
>has been, and will continue to be, taken as being "school-marmy" and
>nit-picky. So be it, because if only ONE, just one person here has has been
>able to correct their English because I nit-picked then my life on the
>internet has not been without reward. :-)

>My work here is done.  Hi-ho, Silver!

>--
>Regards,
>Bruce Kennewell,
>Canberra, Australia.
>---------------------------




>> > Please don't feel that I was belittling you and others with your high
>> > capabilities in English.  But you are the exception and I know from
>personal
>> > feedback that what I first said is true: there *are* a lot of
>non-English
>> > speakers/writers out there who *do* appreciate the display on the
>internet
>> > of correctly structured English.

>> Ah, okay, whatever. And my intention was not to complain us foreigners
>> were being belittled :-)

>> What was supposed to be a minor point and a side note, blew out of
>> proportion as I got carried away with the writing. In any case, I think
>> we both agree most people would rather read proper language, whatever
>> the language is.

>> On the other hand, people seldom misspell on purpose and notifying them
>> about their errors can often feel nitpicking. However polite you are. So
>> I kind of understand if folks tend to get irritated.

>> But whatever. I don't consider it a big deal either way.

>> So why am I still writing about it? :-)

>> -lark-

colin bro

Airborne in GPL?

by colin bro » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

By (self) appointment to Her Royal Highness Queen Elizabeth II
Bruce Kennewell - Defender of the Queens English

Granted for services to spelling 'far beyond the call of duty'.

Stephen Ferguso

Airborne in GPL?

by Stephen Ferguso » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00


...except that it is tedious, and anal, and mucks up some fine threads that
discuss auto simulations.  Can't you throw in a catch-all "Off Topic -
Spelling Corrections" in the subject line so we know to avoid your
nauseating tub thumping.

I would also propose that there is some fine literature out there, which
does not adhere to your vision of the perfect English language.  I would
certainly rather settle down with a book from Irvine Welsh, creative
spelling included, than read another "bale, bail, tire, tyre, prat, pratt"
posting.

Stephen

Bruce Kennewel

Airborne in GPL?

by Bruce Kennewel » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

(snip)
(English is a modern dynamic language, constantly evolving and

Obviously. Extremely possitive, colin.

--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


Bruce Kennewel

Airborne in GPL?

by Bruce Kennewel » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Triffic, Stephen....go for it!
Who's Irvine Welsh? Is he as entertaining as Spike Milligan?
--
Regards,
Bruce Kennewell,
Canberra, Australia.
---------------------------


colin bro

Airborne in GPL?

by colin bro » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

wel spoted thare broos - u r da MAN
Barton Brow

Airborne in GPL?

by Barton Brow » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Hear, hear! Statements like this:

are the usual apologist hogwash for the unrepentantly illiterate. The
"Dumbing of America" (though obviously far more widespread than that)
has been going on for many years, and nowhere on the planet is "English
as she is spoke and writ" in a greater state of decay than America. I'm
not talking about "growth and change," I'm talking about ignorance and
sloth. English is a very complex language, full of quirky pronunciations
(though, tough, cough), odd spelling rules (i before e, except after c?)
emigrant words from many other languages, but with very definite rules
of syntax and grammar. It is also an exceptionally elegant language,
capable of great nuance and subtlety, and with -- when well-crafted -- a
rhythmic, harmonious flow completely unlike any other.

English, the common language that, as Churchill said, divides America
and Great Britain, has also become the International language of
science, diplomacy, air travel, and the internet. The chief reason for
that is that English can be both extremely precise AND richly shaded.
But both precision and subtlety are thrown out the window when people
start making up their own rules, or aping the egregious solecisms they
see on TV or the Net -- the two most pervasive media of English decay,
with the print media -- the one that should, above all others, know
better -- coming in a close third.

English certainly evolves -- another of its great strengths is the ease
in which new or foreign words are assimiliated -- but it doesn't evolve
in anarchy; it grows and changes within its comprehensive ruleset, and
those changes that are least jarring and most fluidly natural are the
ones that make the transition most quickly and painlessly. The ruleset
itself changes, but not without the overwhelming pressure of common
usage. Two excellent examples are the relaxed usage of "who" and "whom",
and the more naturally-flowing exceptions to the "split infinitive" rule.

English is not a stupid language. The mind-numbing idiocy of supposedly
politically-correct aberrations like "Ebonics" -- actually just another
plot to keep African-Americans out of the mainstream of American life --
refused to take root in the wise soil of our language, as the bizarre
experiments in Esperanto and "phonetic English" likewise withered in
their brief heydays. But without constant vigilance and good-spirited
correction, decay will set in. As another great English-speaking
Canadian, Neil Young, once observed: "Rust never sleeps". Already, with
publishing houses dispensing with flesh-and-*** editors and
proofreading being largely mangled by computer spell-checkers
(notoriously unable to determine correct usage, and don't even GET me on
the subject of computer grammar-checkers!), I've seen publications from
major houses incorrectly using "break" for "brake", "shear" for "sheer",
and those are just the most simple ones.

Finally, I think Bruce's comments about new English users learning the
language correctly are spot-on. Communication is the greatest tool the
human race possesses. It is the basis for all societies and tribes, from
the nuclear family to great nation-states. It is the basis for settled
civilizations and the world economy. We are present at the full
flowering of the information age. There is nothing more important in an
information-driven society that that information be precisely correct
when it needs to be correct, and, trickier yet, appropriately ambivalent
when it needs to be ambivalent. What greater proof of that could there
be than the many misunderstandings that arise in these newsgroups
because of sloppy writing? Anyone who doesn't know how to use English
correctly is at a social, personal, and economic disadvantage, and
that's simply not acceptable, when it's so easy to avoid. What's the
best way to avoid it? Read the works of people who know the English
language: Tolkien, Safire, Melville, Lincoln (some of the greatest and
most simple and direct English ever written), Steinbeck, Twain,
Chesterton, Wells, Orwell, Huxley, John Barth, Kurt Vonnegut, Eudora
Welty, Ursula LeGuin, Richard Adams, Robert Pirsig, Carl Sandburg,
Shelby Foote. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read. Read.

There, I'm over it.

BB

Stephen Ferguso

Airborne in GPL?

by Stephen Ferguso » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00


Yes, these also create a little bit of linguistic friction in my brain, but
I think what really annoys most people about these "grammar checker" posts
is that *every* single little error, even one that was obviously a typo,
like "possitive" vs. "positive", is pointed out

Yes, we learn nuances of a second language through newspapers, television,
newsgroups etc. etc.  However, I don't expect to learn everything I need to
know about German from the German newsgroups I read.  Also, even with my
level of German skills, and they are below those of almost every other
non-native English speaker in this group, I can quite easily spot the
typographical errors in German postings.  Bruce's point is moot, and in fact
condescending to most of the non-native English speakers here.  His
persistence in correcting obvious typographical errors is not required to
improve comprehension of the language.

Best advice I've heard yet in this thread.   If you want to learn how to
really express yourself well in a language, then read some of the best works
in that language.  Don't expect to improve your language skills reading
stream-of-consciousness USENET postings.  Cripes.

Too bad Bruce isn't.  A major part of my work is writing.  I publish between
2 and 3 peer-reviewed articles per year in scientific journals, and have to
write a variety of grant applications to keep myself afloat.  If they
weren't well written, I would not be able to move forward with my career.  I
think that I know how to write, and write well.  That's not arrogance
talking, that's just the response I get from reviews.  But my writing style
in USENET is a lot different, by necessity.  I make typographical errors,
and I would find it petty when someone continually points these out.

Stephen

Joona Vaini

Airborne in GPL?

by Joona Vaini » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

What if you guys switched to spelling as we Finns do? Tolkien based the
other Faerie tongue (which - can't remember right now) on Finnish :-)

I mean, in Finnish every letter is always pronounced the same (well,
within the 5mm tolerance). That makes it rather impossible to spell
incorrectly, typos nonwithstanding. If you can say it, you can spell it.
There's probably a fancy word ford this kind of pronouncation/spelling,
but I guess you know what I mean.

Anyways, just kidding. But I've always wondered what's the benefit in
writing a syllable or letter this way and pronouncing it that way
according to the preceding and following syllables/letters?

And I'm not making fun of anyone here. I find this interesting and am
just curious as with many other silly litlle trivialities of human
behaviour and communication.

Oops... wrong newsgroup...

-lark-

Don Hancock (

Airborne in GPL?

by Don Hancock ( » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00


>Don't worry. We will. It's not like we non-natives were reading your
>Anglo drivel with a dictionary in one hand, without the benefit of being
>able to extrapolate on context whenever you guys***up your spelling

    My goodness!  You can write THAT eloquently and NOT be a native
English-speaking person?!  Amazing.  I have to wonder how many Americans
(especially) can so eloquently write in another language...
    You did an amazing job, and you clarified something I'm sure many of us
hadn't thought much of: that you learn to speak and write it at the same
time; therefore your written English is as proper as your spoken English.
    What I think would be difficult for those "non-natives", though, would
be trying to figure out sentences where the contractions are used improperly
and mixed with the wrong form of "to" (too, two, to).  I MYSELF find MANY
statements here so muddled with improper forms of words that I haven't been
able to figure out the sentence at all!

Gunner

Goy Larse

Airborne in GPL?

by Goy Larse » Wed, 05 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Well, I agree to some extent Stephen, but so far I haven't seen Bruce
correct someone who doesn't have English as his native language, or at
least people with names and e-mail addresses that indicate such, I can't
recall one single time he has done that, and he most certainly has never
corrected any of my posts, and I would actually have liked that since I
strive to improve my English skills all the time, Netscape's spell
checker catches my more obvious spelling errors, but the choice of wrong
words or  grammar errors it doesn't

I must say that even though I've always thought of  myself as being
fairly good in English, IMHO of course :-), I must say that my written
English have improved vastly since I ventured onto the "net" some 5
years ago, some of it because of people like Bruce and Bart

Yes, I know that most people who read my posts look at where I post from
and make allowances for me having English as my second language, and I
appreciate that, but without people also correcting us when we make
mistakes, how are we going to improve, and I want to improve, I really
do

And that is why I enjoy reading Bart's post, they don't contain too much
about sim racing perhaps, but they sure have lots nice variations on how
to use the English language, much like your own, although your posts are
usually more sim related :-), that way I can enjoy a nice racing/sim
racing discussion and pick up a few hints and tips on the use of the
English language

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

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