rec.autos.simulators

N4 with GPL phsyics?

Chris Bloo

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Chris Bloo » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00

From the articles posted in RAS I get the feeling that NASCAR
sims are paying the electricity bill over at Papyrus these
days.  I'm sure NASCAR 4 will have the accesibility of previous
NASCAR sims so not to scare away the masses, I'm also certain
that the Sim will be tougher and more realistic than any NASCAR
sim before it to keep the *** simmers happy.

I have no doubt Papy have learnt from GPL in this regard.

Chris



>VERY well explained.

>I would *hope* that if n4 is difficult, then papy release it
difficult with
>maybe a couple of training modes or some kind of physics help,
but i
>personally wouldn't mind it being tough, after all,
gpl 'was' :o))

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Michael E. Carve

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Michael E. Carve » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00


% Dave Matson (Papy "Project Director") said in The Pit Stop board over in the
% Sierra forums that they can't secure a CART license. Hence, no chance of a new
% CART sim anytime soon.

They had one, but I think it expires this year.  They sat on it and
didn't do anything.   The profit wasn't there.  I think they needed to
concentrate on NASCAR to recoup the revenue loss of GPL.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Michael E. Carve

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Michael E. Carve » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00


%     From what I have seen with the upcoming N4 release, they are using
% menus very similiar to GPL in fact the setup options look very good.
%     The physics model is a toned down version of GPL although I declined
% to try a beta version it appeared that they have made some improvements
% in the physics but some of the old bugs are still here.

Are the physics really toned down?  Or are they tuned to fit the
dynamics of a Winston Cup Car.....  I would think the latter is more to
the point.

%     You can expect improved FF and it may be better than GPL's. I
% just hope they take the graphics and physics up a notch or two in the final
% release from what I have seen.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

GraDe

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by GraDe » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Well to *us* thats true. We love our true sims and so on, we hear about them
for ages. As long as they don't encode it too heavily nobody has a problem.

The main matter is though that RS2 kinda bombed because it hadn't an FIA
licence.
It sold mostly to followers of F1RS and sim racers but to the average Joe.
When you see boxes lined up with the name "Official Formula 1 Simulator" by
Eidos or similar games, the yellow and blue boxed CD of RS2 paled in
comparison. WE all know which was the better but to people just looking in
the store and seeing both for the first time (which I bet a large percentage
of people do, which we often forget), OF1R just looked like the one to get.

Thats their problem I bet.

GraDe

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by GraDe » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00

I understand this, but lke I said, I don't kep too up to date with the
NASCAR (or Papy) series too much.

Thats fair enough. I think its jsut the basic thing to peole are geting
mixed up about what an engine is, which is what confsed me when I read all
the stuff. I was kinda led to believe that the phsics would be based on GPL.
While it would be great to get realism close to GPL, I don't know if having
the basic phsyics of a WC car, a 1967 GP car was the best of ideas.

Anyhoo....... As a short-time followr of the real-NASCARS (hey, have to
watch something, Eurpsport quit showing the CART races), do these lads race
totally on ovals?

Morgan VW

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Morgan VW » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Dave emailed and pointed out that he never actually said they couldn't get the
license, but that they simply didn't have plans for a future CART sim. Maybe
they can get the license? Anyway, having no plans is worse than an inability to
get the license. It means they don't even care. With the competition from EA
Sports and now Hasbro, Sierra probably won't allow anything except constant
NASCAR. I'm a NASCAR fan myself, but even I'd like to see an updated CART or F1
sim.

--
-----------------------------------
Morgan Vincent Wooten

http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
-----------------------------------


> Dave Matson (Papy "Project Director") said in The Pit Stop board over in the
> Sierra forums that they can't secure a CART license. Hence, no chance of a
new
> CART sim anytime soon.

> --
> -----------------------------------
> Morgan Vincent Wooten

> http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
> -----------------------------------




> > >The N4 engine will be based on a heavily altered GPL engine.
> > >A CART sim would have been easier though. argh.

> > I'm still surprised that Papyrus haven't continued with their CART
> > series and have instead chosen to focus on Nascar. Did they ever give
> > a reason for this?

> > I haven't seen a decent CART game in years. It's long overdue.

> > Alpha Omega

> > ICQ: 70300233

Morgan VW

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Morgan VW » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00

This explanation needs to be put into a FAQ so everyone will quit confusing
this stuff.

--
-----------------------------------
Morgan Vincent Wooten

http://members.tripod.com/~morganv/
-----------------------------------



> > <<The N4 engine will be based on a heavily altered GPL engine>>

> >  I would hope so since a Winston Cup car would handle nothing like a 67 GP
> > car

> Looks like we have somebody who doesn't understand the concept of game
> engines.  You see Tony you are been misled with terms here... Game
> developers have what we call "game engines".  To make it short, it's the
> main part of the game where everything else is attached to it.  It is the
> most important part of any type of games.  Sound, gameplay, menus, AI, etc..
> it's all far or closely related to the game engine.

> For racing simulators, it is -the- essential point to create a successful
> and serious racing simulator.  Few companies have a quality game engine.
> Some titles on the market have great ones, but fail to attach the correct
> things to it (per example the 3d model structure for track accuracy, bad AI
> or simply faulty physics).  The opposite can be true, where everything else
> attached is great but the core of the game is lacking.  Note that Im talking
> about racing simulators, and on purpose excluding arcade-type racing games.
> It's a little different, since the external attachments are a little more
> important, and the game engine a little less (even if still essential).

> To get back to N4, Papyrus has with GPL created a completely new game
> engine.  Since IndyCar Racing 1 (Papyrus second title back in the early
> 90's) they have used the same core game engine that was patched with time.
> Somehow for a very complicated reason (err... reasons) that would be too
> long in this thread to talk about, they have never developed a new one until
> GPL.  It took to David Kaemmer's team many many years to develop it, and
> they decided that the first racing simulation using it would be GPL.  It
> could had been any other title, but it was GPL, modeling cars that are
> extremely difficult to drive.

> In no way should you think or being thought that N4 will be "GPL with a
> roof".  People saying "it's an altered GPL engine" use misleading words.
> The term "GPL engine" is simply to difference it to every other Papyrus
> title on the market, since at the moment it's unique.  Don't make any
> relation between GPL the game and GPL the game engine.  The game engine is
> amazing and incredible (like the game also) and years ahead of anything
> else.  Of course it's been altered so that stockcars are modeled, but some
> people misled and make people think that N4 will be an dumbed down game to
> N3-quality, since GPL is very difficult to the mass market.

> What they will do with N4 is to take the incredible "GPL" game engine and
> model Stockcars inside the game engine instead of 1967 F1's.  That's all.
> Fear nothing.  It will be more complex that's for sure, but it's not because
> of GPL.  It's because the game engine is the best on the market.  I try on
> r.a.s. to call the game engine the "new one" instead of "GPL engine" since
> some confusion still exist it seems.

> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- May the Downforce be with you...
> -- http://www.WeRace.net
> -- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
> how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

ymenar

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by ymenar » Wed, 19 Apr 2000 04:00:00


Of course!! Look at how deep the gameplay is in the NASCAR series from
Papyrus.  You have so many parameters you can adjust that in no-way will the
mass market for the title (the average gamer) feel it's too difficult like
GPL was.  But of course, GPL was not market for those people.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world.

Pete

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Pete » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00

    Because it was an illegal copy that somebody from the inside
had passed out to a few friends and I decided to pass on it. But
then again leaks used to be common hopefully they have listened
to my warnings. I have received a few emails from Papy people
but the arrogance some of them exibit makes me doubt it.

    Pete


Matthew V. Jessic

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Matthew V. Jessic » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00


> To think of an analogy, for example you want to use your computer to
> solve a problem, let's say invert a 6x6 matrix. Yes, computers can be
> used for things other than games. You write a program (an 'engine') to
> invert this matrix by using an algorithm that is used for general
> matrices, only that you seet the parameter of the dimension of the
> matrix to 6, problem solved.

It's good analogy, but a bad example ;)

By coincidence, I spent several hours this afternoon implementing
an algorithm to invert a 10x10 matrix for a game.
It was built for exactly the specific problem at hand, in order
to take advantage of all the zeros common in some of the
matrices of various of our equations of motion. Eventually, we will optimize it
much more by sucking the life out of every common factor we can find, ;)
and precalculating (or low rate recalculating) any parts for which that is
appropriate. It is specifically for use with one type of suspension that we
deal with. We will repeat this task for other suspension types later, as required.

This algorithm replaces a general routine that was used until it's
slowness got too annoying. This is the algorithmic equivalent
of designing an ASIC (Application Specifric Integrated Circuit)

Having said all that, I actually agree with the basic premise.
I was part of the team that revised a completely general
trajectory optimization program (OTIS 3) for new uses by NASA
a few years back. I'd love to use OTIS on race car simulations,
it would rock. It would be a fun challenge to implement everything in an
input file. It could _almost_ be done, I think ;)

As you suggested, we tended to use that tool for everything.
Once you have a general hammer, every problem starts
looking like a nail! ;)  However, if I was using it day in and day out for a
particular problem, rather than staring at my screen for long periods of time,
I'd consider ripping out 100,000 lines of general code and specializing
the equations of motion for the particular problem
(the tool is designed to allow that.)

I'd advocate using general algorithms to save engineering time up front, and
specialized tools once you change over to turning the crank.
If the speed improvements are worth revalidating the specialized code.
And in games, they still often are.

--
Matthew V. Jessick             Motorsims

Vehicle Dynamics Engineer  (972)910-8866, Fax: (972)910-8216

Pete

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Pete » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00

    The early betas were system pigs to the Nth degree. Some people
were complaining about problems with F12k, they are minor compared
to the early betas. How about 8fps on a 800mhz system! The later betas
were much better but now that they were drivable and had a ton of setup
options ala GPL they didn't exibit any huge improvement in physics. And
as I have stated some of the old "Papy" type setup bugs ie. springs set to
100% are still there! I'm sure that some things will be tweaked and worked
on from what I saw as the beta was from a few months ago.
    It will be another evolution not revolution. There will be some new
quirks and surprises.

    Pete



> Are the physics really toned down?  Or are they tuned to fit the
> dynamics of a Winston Cup Car.....  I would think the latter is more to
> the point.

> %     You can expect improved FF and it may be better than GPL's. I
> % just hope they take the graphics and physics up a notch or two in the
final
> % release from what I have seen.

> --
> **************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
>      Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Matthew V. Jessic

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Matthew V. Jessic » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00


> Now I see your point more clearly. The people wanting a full CFD model
> do not know what they are asking for. I agree with your approach to
> aero, the full real time CFD model is far, far beyond the reach of the
> top 1GHz home processors we use today, and the results of both
> approaches would not be distinguished by us mere mortals, at least not
> in the normal regimes which matter the most.

Definitly. In aerospace, the aero guys take the results of their CFD runs
and build us tables for use in real time and engineering analysis simulations.
We can't model all the detail they can, and the aero guys can't run exactly
all the test cases we want anyway. 10 other programs want their time and
their computers time. The guys over in the flight sim group have a real
phobia of  "Tables". Which amuses me because the last airplane program
I worked on _added_ 400 more table look ups during the time I worked
with the simulation to model how the wings flapped ;)
We ran that sim in real time on a Power PC chip, BTW. ;)

The aero worked fine, but the brakes still locked up badly (wrongly)
on occasion, even at 1000 Hz. The sim ran twice as fast off the ground
as on the ground.  (Cars are hard ;)

--
Matthew V. Jessick         Motorsims

Vehicle Dynamics Engineer  (972)910-8866, Fax: (972)910-8216

Gregor Vebl

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Gregor Vebl » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00


> By coincidence, I spent several hours this afternoon implementing
> an algorithm to invert a 10x10 matrix for a game.
> It was built for exactly the specific problem at hand, in order
> to take advantage of all the zeros common in some of the
> matrices of various of our equations of motion. Eventually, we will optimize it
> much more by sucking the life out of every common factor we can find, ;)
> and precalculating (or low rate recalculating) any parts for which that is
> appropriate. It is specifically for use with one type of suspension that we
> deal with. We will repeat this task for other suspension types later, as required.

I know the problem you are dealing with, I am trying to build a
realistic simulation of vehicles myself (but I am just starting). I just
wonder how on earth you got to a 10x10 matrix ;) ? I am implementing a
multiple link suspension, and the dimension is always 6x6 (the number of
degrees of freedom). Or are you actually going into modelling the
inertial properties of tyre (its mass and accelerations)? I thought of
doing it myself, but then realized that the time steps are so small that
when playing it would barely be noticable, but could cause stability
problems in calculations. I would like to hear more about your approach.
We can take this discussion to e-mail if you prefer.

I agree. In games this is really an issue. Do you use old tested code
for the sake of stability and low cost of the program (not numerical
stability), or do you optimize every part to make it run fast but more
susceptible to bugs and running over the budget? It's hard to tell, but
at the times that favour fast development cycles, the first option seems
more appropriate, even though it has its downfalls.

-Gregor

P.S.: You have no idea what a drooling factor you started for me by
mentioning that you are using matrices for calculating the suspension (I
thik I know what this is about). Will this already be used in the
Trans-Am sim? I think you should start to create more hype about it with
the sim fans.

TRUSRS

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by TRUSRS » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00

He never said anything about the CART liscence.
I check those boards every day for any news on a new CART sim.

Cliff Roma

N4 with GPL phsyics?

by Cliff Roma » Thu, 20 Apr 2000 04:00:00

Yes he did



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