rec.autos.simulators

by **Bill Bollinge** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:12:34

Bravo.... Excellent post.

Bill Bollinger
www.gsxn.com

>> So fairly unimpressed with First Racing's start so far...

>> Tony

> Agreed, I have been a Papyrus/Kaemmer supporter for it seems like a
> decade. I am, however, totally deflated by this current stand.

> They are protecting outdated code. Surely they can't believe a mod will
> attract attention if it only LOOKS like a gtp car? Sure it drives like a
> Nascar Tank, but trust us...it LOOKS like a Porche 962.

> Several points jump out at me. ISI is making at least some cash selling
> the tools they use to create thier sims to modders. Not all groups and
> not
> all mods, but some folks have paid cash. Not to license the cars, logos,
> tracks, or whatever, but the tools to create new stuff that ISI doesn't
> have the time or resources to address themselves.

> Simbin and GTR would NOT exist today if the original FIA V3 2k1 mod
> "looked" like a Viper or a Ferrari 550 but drove like an F1 rocket. RSDG
> would not be creating new mods based on sportscars if they drove like F1
> cars. RSR's brilliant ETCC touring car mod would be a COMPLETE FREEAKING
> DISASTER if it drove like an dang EFF One car.

> Yet that is the constraint First is demanding. Feel free to mess with
> the shapes, sounds, graphics...but don't you dare make the cars lighter,
> or
> heavier, or lower, or or or....

> Finally the exe that FIRST is so jealously protecting has been hacked for
> a long time now. There isn't anything in there that SOMEBODY hasn't
> already pried apart and poked and prodded and massaged. This defense of
> secrets that are not secrets is obsured.

> and one more finally...

> To use the FIRST auto analogy. Suppose BMW makes an M3, but somebody
> finds a way to build a custom part that IMPROVES the M3. Does BMW scream
> ***y ***? Do they sic lawyers on a guy whose new pipe or chip
> increases the performance of the M3? No, they say thanks for creating
> something that increases sales of my product and improves the value of
> said
> product to those who have already purchased it.

> I was lucky enough to get the GTP v1.0 release. I am tempted to flood
> the binaries newsgroups....tempted... I have known folks in the company
> via the net for years. Sites like theuspits have worked hand in hand with
> that team, fine way to keep in touch Dave..

> dave henrie

by **Larr** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:30:21

Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and for
this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them.

It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse.

-Larry

by **Mitch_** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:34:38

> Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and
> for this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them.

> It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse.

> -Larry

When Lawyers get involved its **NEVER** too late ;)
--
Remove "nospam." to reply.
SuSE 9.2 Pro KDE 3.3.2a

by **Schoone** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 02:36:54

They are not talking about mod add-ons, they are talking about modifying the
underlying code of the engine by changing the EXE. You can still make
tracks, cars, etc. They just don't want the code which they own being
modded and redistributed. No any different than modding say Windows so it
doesn't need activation then posting it on the net.

> Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and
> for this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them.

> It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse.

> -Larry

>>I don't blame Kaemmer and Henry a bit for taking a tough stand. BTW, the
>> post does not say no mods allowed. It says no hacking, and he explains
>> the
>> difference. Authorized and licensed mods will be allowed, hence the last
>> line of his post regarding GTP.

by **John DiFoo** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:30:05

My take is, from FIRST's perspective, why worry about competition
from people modding this older game? I mean there are a lot of
constraints in NR2003's code which prevent such (hypothetical)
features like dynamic weather & day/night, complete support for
enduro racing, more than 4/5 models at once, etc. etc. I still think
NR is the best sim out there at this moment, but it IS starting to get
a bit long in the tooth.

But from what I understand that is at best a secondary issue for
them (if it is an issue at all): it's all about the legalities
surrounding
the copyright.

One thing I am sure about tho: this is a major public relations
fiasco for them (despite everything else that has been debated):
they certainly could have handled it MUCH better.

John DiFool

by ZZ » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 04:59:43

>> Well, cosidering PAPYRUS provided the mechanism for the Mods openly and
>> for this purpose I sure hope they aren't tryinig to stop them.
>>
>> It's a bit late to try and shove the shit back into the Horse.
>>
>> -Larry

When Lawyers get involved its **NEVER** too late ;)

----------------------------

Then we agree, lawyers shove shit. :-)

--
Richard "ZZ" Busch

http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif

Member:
Screamers Racing League
oAo
AoA
MARA GTR
GT Rank +36.233
NGT Rank +41.093
GT Rank Monster +1214.979
GPL Rank + 14.768
MoGPL Rank + 308.654
N2003 Rank -18.8060
----------------
Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward
-----------------

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

by **Tony Rickar** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:00:54

> They are not talking about mod add-ons, they are talking about modifying
the
> underlying code of the engine by changing the EXE. You can still make
> tracks, cars, etc. They just don't want the code which they own being
> modded and redistributed. No any different than modding say Windows so it
> doesn't need activation then posting it on the net.

The difference is providing enhancements which require the original software
rather than providing a means of piracy.

I bought NR2003 specifically *not* to run stock cars. NR2003 wasn't bundled
free with any mod.

by JP » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 05:02:35

You go to usenet, and you're surprised by what you find ?

by **Malc** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:32:58

imo one of the reasons gpl lasted so long was (for the first four years or
so) /because/ it was so hard to alter the physics, it made league & pick-up
races much more enjoyable in the longer term because you knew the other guy
in a Lotus or whatever really did have the same car as you so if they beat
you it was because they were a better driver.

I don't see that the modding situation has changed, 'Papy' sims can't be
modded (used to be because people didn't know how, now it's a legal issue
but the effect is the same) and are aimed at people who want guaranteed fair
online racing. 'EA' sims can be modded & it is encouraged, and are aimed at
people who want variety and are not so concerned about online racing or
leagues.

There's a hell of a grey area & my description lays it out in a very
black-or-white way but as long as the original title simulates something
that interests me I'd be all for making it as hard to alter the physics as
possible. If the original title doesn't interest me but a mod for that title
does, I'll buy it for the variety, but not for a long-term commitment.

There is room in the community for both types of sim, I think Dave K & Co
are just targeting a different, but overlapping audience to EA.

Malc.

by **Tony Rickar** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:41:41

> There's a hell of a grey area & my description lays it out in a very
> black-or-white way but as long as the original title simulates something
> that interests me I'd be all for making it as hard to alter the physics as
> possible. If the original title doesn't interest me but a mod for that
title
> does, I'll buy it for the variety, but not for a long-term commitment.

In my view the mods that are now changing the physics have only come about
because of the lack of releases of the Papy engined sims. Once the products
start coming I believe the problem will go away. The modders will be playing
catch up and will there be the need/desire to mod anyway?

Which is why I belive FIRST to be a bit heavy handed in their approach, but
it is no bigger a deal than that.

by **Malc** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 08:57:14

I agree completely, and I look forward to the return of that era.

by **David Ciemn** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 10:41:18

> I was lucky enough to get the GTP v1.0 release. I am tempted to flood
> the binaries newsgroups....tempted... I have known folks in the company
> via the net for years. Sites like theuspits have worked hand in hand with
> that team, fine way to keep in touch Dave..

> dave henrie

> ----------------------------
> There's always BitTorrent for mods. No one will know where or who it came
> from.

> I think they'll just force modders underground.

> --
> Richard "ZZ" Busch

> http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif

> Member:
> Screamers Racing League
> oAo
> AoA
> MARA GTR
> GT Rank +36.233
> NGT Rank +41.093
> GT Rank Monster +1214.979
> GPL Rank + 14.768
> MoGPL Rank + 308.654
> N2003 Rank -18.8060
> ----------------
> Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward
> -----------------

> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
> News==----
> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+
> Newsgroups
> ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption
> =----

I agree with zz...one for the bad taste and two it will imo force modders
underground.

DC

by ZZ » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 11:38:35

'EA' sims can be modded & it is encouraged, and are aimed at
people who want variety and are not so concerned about online racing or
leagues.

--------------------------------------
The reason online racers don't care about EA racing sims online, is
because they stink for racing online.

--
Richard "ZZ" Busch

http://gplrank.schuerkamp.de/gtrank_banners/14884.gif

Member:
Screamers Racing League
oAo
AoA
MARA GTR
GT Rank +36.233
NGT Rank +41.093
GT Rank Monster +1214.979
GPL Rank + 14.768
MoGPL Rank + 308.654
N2003 Rank -18.8060
----------------
Remember racecar is racecar spelled backward
-----------------

by **Malc** » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:24:51

> The reason online racers don't care about EA racing sims online, is
> because they stink for racing online.

It wouldn't make much difference if they were great online, if you can't be
sure your opponents are using the same set of physics there just isn't as
much interest in setting up leagues & a big long-term following. It takes
stability to get a big community following, but not everyone wants that,
many just want variety. EA caters for the people who want lots of different
mods, First can cater for the more 'specialist interest' drivers, as long as
they choose genres that are popular enough to generate money.

How easy it is to mod a sim & how easy it is to cheat are the same thing,
and preventing cheating is an important part of online racing, and online
racing is important to the longevity of a sim's community.

Malc.

by JP » Mon, 07 Mar 2005 12:53:02

> > The reason online racers don't care about EA racing sims online, is
> > because they stink for racing online.

> It wouldn't make much difference if they were great online, if you can't
be
> sure your opponents are using the same set of physics there just isn't as
> much interest in setting up leagues & a big long-term following. It takes
> stability to get a big community following, but not everyone wants that,
> many just want variety. EA caters for the people who want lots of
different
> mods, First can cater for the more 'specialist interest' drivers, as long
as
> they choose genres that are popular enough to generate money.

> How easy it is to mod a sim & how easy it is to cheat are the same thing,
> and preventing cheating is an important part of online racing, and online
> racing is important to the longevity of a sim's community.

> Malc.

03 or NSR, doesn't really matter; there is no sure-fire way to be sure
your opponents are using the same set of physics, etc. Cheating has taken
place in 03 since it was released, with the latest *public* notice of it at
OLR, a few months back.

Some sims may be easier to do this with, but none are immune.

- Show quoted text -

rec.autos.simulators

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly

First Racing get surly