rec.autos.simulators

Come ON !!
Did u say the same thing when OS2 fell into oblivion ?

Here's my point - If you had a choice of another F1 sim in the market
that runs w/ all the settings THATS offered in the game with a resonable
computer(say a P133 Intel, 32Meg EDO, 2meg PCI) which would u buy if u
could only afford one ??

Here's another example - lets ignore the bugs as you mentioned.
What about customer service thats EXPECTED from paying for software ???
I have repeatedly sent e-mail to their site(MPS) for support the past 4
months and got back ZERO replys.

Heres another fact:

I have a P200Intel on an ASUS board, 4 meg of video fast
ram(Mystique),64meg of EDO ram.

I'm sure that most people reading this post would agree that its one of
the stronger systems available to date.

Why then do I still have to turn off the sky and texture in the mirrors

???

To put this into another perspective, a car that u purchased and found
out that it could not do what it claimed on paper -would u not bring the
car back to the dealership to have it checked out ??

WHen something is offered thats not really there in the car biz, thats
usually called a SCAM.

With GP2, the consumer was led to believe that the features that the
game offered in the options should work resonably well w/ a mid priced
computer. WHY is that the game w/ all the processing power that I have
still requires me to turn the details down ??

I have read here that some people here are willing to wait till the next
generation of processors come out for GP2 - why ??? - If this is the
case just play GP1 instead - NOT.

It seems you can live w/ paying that kinda of cash for SCAM software
thats not supported by it programers. Hmmmm...  could I sell u some
beautiful prime property down in the Everglades ?? ;-)

Fire away - I got my helmet and nomax suit on.

Jude R.
1996 AC Cobra(425hp)
1995 SHO(225hp)
1997 Windstar(It carries the kids and the spare parts)

I agree with that part.

Still following you...

You don't have to search for bugs in GP2, they are obvious.

At least they can count one fully satisfied customer...

That's where you are wrong.  Understand this:  It is not likely that
there will be any future version, nor any updates or bugfixes.  That's
what I'm complaining about.  We should be entitled to some support...
But it looks like Microprose just took our money and ran away, and I
don't think that's gonna get them many loyal customers...

They are indeed good programmers.  But for customer support,
Microprose fails.

C'est sur que GP2 n'est pas si horrible qu'on le dit, mais par contre
leur service apres-vente est horrible selon mes standards.

A.Renault

(as usual) -DG-

As for Micropose, well thats another subject.  I have heard they totally
ignore there customers!  Perhaps Geoff should consider another s/ware
house to distribute his undoughted talents.

Jammer (UK)

Really? Actual "bugs". Is there a list somewhere?

I've put a _lot_ of hours into GP2 (can't say whether it is more than the
guys taking part in the seemingly orchestrated campaign against GP2 or
not but believe me, it's a lot - check out the HOF2 if you want evidence
<g>) and I can only think of a couple that have any effect on racing.

So where are all these bugs? No flame - I'm genuinely interested to know
what I've been missing since that long awaited day last July ;-)

The missing features are annoying, but they are by no stretch of the
imagination "bugs". Modem support is crap, but that's a ***design
rather than an actual "bug". Frame rates could be better, but ensure that
you are really comparing like for like - remember that GP2 was programmed
before 3D cards were readily available and that full detail at Monaco is
rather more than any other non-Rendition sim offers.

Here's my "bug" list, feel free to add your own:
 - very occasional messing up of results (solution, save game immediately
after crossing finish line and restart from that if necessary)
 - very occasional messing up of replays (solution, don't do them whilst
racing - you don't see Damon or Michael pause their races to watch a
replay <g>)
 - once I lost all sound & had to restart the game. But just the once and
I've had it happen in other programs as well
 - occasional trouble saving games from within W95 (solution, don't run
from within W95!!)
 - F3 doesn't always align you correctly (solution - don't use F3 <g>)

Everything else I can think of is down to seemingly intentional design
decisions. They may be strange or even downright bad decisions and need
improving, but they're not bugs.

BTW - I am 100% in agreement that Microprose have badly let us down over
patches. Some form of 3D support, IPX/better modem support and genuine
bug fixes really should have been released well before Christmas.

GP2 isn't perfect by a long shot, but comparing it to other recent sims
there are far fewer bugs that actually matter. I've never had a GP2 race
ruined whilst I've had several N2 races turned into farces by bugs. The
difference is that Papy are at least addressing these.

Cheers,
Richard

Stuart

--
Stuart Booth
Somewhere in Oxfordshire, England, UK

Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

etc..

Unfortunately, this newsgroup represents a relatively tiny number of
enthusiasts who (a) don't have any clout and (b) probably don't
represent the average game buyer (including buyers of GP2) anyway.

The _reality_ of releasing a patch for GP2 would be:

- Only a small % of GP2 owners would ever get to see it (mostly the
enthusiasts such as people here) - others simply don't care / won't
find out. Thus, the goodwill generated by releasing the patch will be
fairly limited.

- It will cost $$$s to make a patch.

The _reality_ of _not_ releasing a patch would be:

- you'd all go out and buy GP3 (if it is ever released) anyway.

Sorry, its the truth...

Fraser

Fellow Claude doesn't understand all this talking about GP2;  all
those complaints? It's not that difficult... Just to make it simpler
let's pretend it's pretty enjoyable be fooled by several
adverti***ts, by the owner's manual, and so now stop discussing if
having many bugs makes of a game a real shit.

There is people that accepts bugs and people that doesn't. If you have
the choice of course it's better that a softer is bug free;  after
all, bugs are malfunctions and you won't see any adverti***ts of any
kind, of any product confessing  that a product has this or that
malfuncion, though it's clear to anyone that bugs are somewhat
inherent and so should be accepted sometimes.

It's not merelly a money question but of respect, of being normaly
honest.  Just the same when programmers want us to respect their
intelectual property and so not to pirate.

You say you're not a sim fan and  enjoy GP2 despite all bugs.  Me and
other people say we don't like bugs. Put it this way it's just a
matter of taste and we have nothing more to talk of.

However,  if you go to buy anything and give less money than it's the
price to pay, you simply don't take the product with you. So it's the
law in any country.

Also,  you cannot sell anything different than what is said it to be.
In this second case, all is just theory. After you buy a product
you'll mostly have to deal with its problems and with the missing
promised support and garantee. In almost all  cases, your money was
the first thing gone. Second to go is your time, your enjoy and your
patience.

Even those of you living in first world coutries just can pay
attention to the fact of everyday products (or services) getting
broken around you. It can be just small things, but it happens all the
time. And you have payed the price asked for all of them. So consumers
rights is still missing, everywhere in the world.

The problem with GP2 is the promised support and the adverti***t
made about it. Among other things as, for exemple, not sending a
promised owner's manual in other language, in by you just sending a
letter-request as instructed by Microprose. You can send as many as
you want: there will be no answer at all. Try it !  Just make an
experience...

You need nothing more than just common sense to notice that -- despite
having good features and qualities -- the game has been released with
even more bugs than GP1, with a level of difficulty of not use, with a
waste of processing just making the behavior away from reality (as
several cheatings by the computer controlled cars);  suiting only
processors that will come in a day in the future (when it had
released the GP3 yet) and other things people is complaining around.

I don't know exactly what has gone on the heads of people at
Microprose when they released the game.

But I'm pretty sure that the people complaining against them would
never desire to be responsible for the release of a game told been
tested and holding such amount of defects. In other words: a beta as
final version.

Regards.

Fernando Assis.

I agree with you.

Here's your bug list:

You can add the invisible pit wall at the Australian GP.  But I agree
with you, they are not bugs that will keep you from racing and having
fun.  I never said that.  I just said they were obvious.

What really p_sses me off is that we never hear from Microprose, so we
are always expecting some kind of patch...  At least they could tell
us there won't be any, so we can stop hoping...  Why are they silent
since GP2 came out?  Many people have had trouble getting through
customer support for troubleshooting help, so no wonder we can't get
through to know if there will ever be any patch...

No disagreement on that part.

That's what's really buggin me...  Why do Papy care about their
product?  They could do just like MP did and work secretly on a patch
(At least I hope that's what MP is doing)...  No, they preferred to
keep in touch with us.  They don't give any dates but at least we know
they're working on it.  If MP tells us they are working on a patch,
we'll all stop whining and we'll all be saying "I can't wait for the
GP2 patch to come out"...

Anyway that doesn't stop me from enjoying GP2, but I know I'd enjoy it
far more if I could have some efficient multiplayer code added...

A. Renault

[snip happy camper's comments]

I allow myself one new game every month.  Some are crap, some are
good.  GP2 is one of the better ones.  And I do have the spec you
mention above.   SVGA is quite playable on any track except
Monaco.  Most of all, it's NEVER crashed or hung unlike many
other games.

[snip some more]

To be honest, I'd check it out before I bought it.  Reason being,
cars cost alot more than computer games.  I have spent
more time playing GP2 (and enjoying it) than I would have got
from spending the same amount at the movies.  I don't refuse to
go to movies from Universal Studios because Back to the Future
number 3 wasn't really that much better than the original and I'm
a little tired of Marty McFly's inability to take being called
chicken.

No, it's called advertising - a traditionally misleading form of
communication.  Do you like infommercials on late night TV?
Would you be disappointed if you couldn't recall the names
of twenty complete strangers after buying the MEGA-MEMORY
system?  In Australia they use the inclusion of airbags as
incentive to buy a car.  It doesn't matter that most Australians wear
seatbelts which effectively make the lifesaving qualities of
airbags pointless.  (feel free to flame me for this one, my
brother does traffic accident research :-)  It sells cars.

[snip more]

It's a game!  It's fun.  And most of all, it's quite good value in
terms of $$$/hour entertainment even in Aussie dollars.
Then again, I only have a Mad Catz wheel, and everyone
else seems to think that's ***too.

How about asbetos undies? <g>

F1 - Bring back the TURBOS
F3000 - C'mon Craig Lowndes!!!

[snip some here]

What you mean "quite playable"? Let's define it a little more: What's
the frame rate you get?  Oh, I see..., you like that stroboscopic to
still have more irrealistic fun on a so called simulator (or game?).
It's a matter of taste...

Also I see that you're happy because it never crashed. It's a good
idea to get glad with normal and simple things. I'll learn to get
happy also just  because my legs walk normally and never turned upside
down!

(But you don't take both home if you don't pay them as priced. The
same way, I'll complain always they don't give me what was promised.
Even if it be one of better games in the market.)

Well, fellow, I'm honest also but I don't have such Superman x-ray
vision. I check a car out before to buy it, but I cannot predict the
end of work of each molecule inside, to avoid, for instance,  what
happened to Ayrton Senna who also didn't have this x-ray vision in
Imola. So I don't know which parts will be broken next month.

The manufacturers control much better the durability of most parts in
a car, so I expect them to have the same precision about the promised
guaranty, which is infinitely easier to be done.

Same thing applies to computer games or any other product. You get to
know the product in by using it. Or... by the adverti***ts???  

The law  -- or the universal honest principle, if you prefer -- is the
same, regardless of the price of the car, or the computer game; or if
you buy one new game each month with ease; this can be different for
many other fellows.

You've got right at the point. So it's not difficult for you to
understand our complaints.

If this is so, ask Fuji Television to forget their interest on it. Ask
FIA to do the same. Ask Canon, Hitachi, Esso, etc to do also the same.
Go say to handreds people that worked in this game for Microprose to
never mind about piratary. Ask Microprose to decrease 0.1% of the
price to make easier to fellows at third world to buy the game. Say
them it's fun give the promised support and to fix the bugs or even to
release the weather change people has claimed here on this newsgroups.

BTW,  it's a good read -- "GP2 Whish List" -- by Zosel Karl in this
newsgroups.

[snip for brevity]
Valid point.  I was a student for a few years and had stuff
all money.  All the more reason to be very careful with
what you spend your money on, and not to blindly follow
advertising.

I do understand your complaints.  
I myself am upset that there is no variable weather, as this
would have improved the game substantially.  However, the
fact remains that the game is substantially better than many
games which cost the same or more.  You can't compare
it to a Papyrus game (or Papy support) since Papyrus
are far above the average in the games publishing industry.

Finally, if you really have a problem with the software and
don't feel like it was worth the money, or that you were
mislead, call your local small claims tribunal and attempt
to claim your money back from Microprose themselves.
If your grounds are in fact considered valid - you'll get your
money back and you can waste it on Eidos PowerF1 which
cost about the same and will have you wishing for GP2.

Jet

Le problme c'est que pendant que nous nous chialions sur se sujet, un
dnom Geoff Crammond se bronze au soleil dans son domaine sur les ?les
Hawaii.  Donc Grandprix2=jeu commercial=grosses ventes==jeu fait pour de
grand marchs=jeu fait pour tout le monde de 077ans=jeu restant la
base de la formule1=mauvais jeu=$$$$$$=pas de patches=Simracer
mcontents.  Gp2 est un jeu.  N2 est une simulation.  Diffrent  :)  .
Le problme aussi c'est que pour le mme prix nous pouvons nous acheter
Nascar2 et donc avoir un jeu avec:

a)Moins de bugs (je n'ai pas dit SANS bugs)
b)Un framerate trs acceptable
c)2 updates qui s'enviennent trs t?t
d)Les pistes de l'an pass et non d'il y a 3 ans.
e)La possibilit de jouer sur rseau
f)Des utilitaires beaucoup mieux structurs et bien fait
g)Une section pour peinturer l'automobile
h)Un service aprs-vente merveilleux (Vois-tu GCrammond sur r.a.s.??)

Finalement Claude je sais que c'est ton opinion et que je la respecte,
mme si je ne l'approuve pas.  Mais parce que tu es une personne vivant
au Qubec (comme Antoine Renault je crois aussi) je te dis bonjour et
la prochaine chicane de voisin.  Ce n'est qu'un jeu et il faut prendre
tout cela la lgre.

P.S.:  Je crois que c'est la premire fois que je tape tout mon texte
sur r.a.s en fran?ais seulement.  Ceci est ma 547me intervention sur
r.a.s depuis Juillet 1996(mon Newsreader compte le nombre d'envois
posts pour chaque newsgroup.  Cool)  Au plaisir de vous relire mes
chers confrres qubcois.  Il faut s'exprimer et prendre sa place ici
sur r.a.s. et donc j'espre qu' la longue vous posterez + sur r.a.s.
Quel age avez-vous?

P.S.:  j'ai modifi ma signature et elle est en Fran?ais maintenant :)
Merci beaucoup,
Bonne course la piste de brique.(Le vieux "piste indianapolis" masqu)

     [===]   Vas-y Rubens Barrichello, Jacques Villeneuve,

     | ! |   Pour tout ceux qui pense que Jacques Villeneuve vient du
      |!|    Qubec, vous avez raison!! Il vient de St-Jean sur le
      |o|    Richelieu, 30 minutes de Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

    [--I--]      
       v  
Fran?ois Mnard "Wasupe LeGrand
Nien Numb dans la Ligue Nationale de la Guerre des toiles(Ligue de
X-Wing versus Tie-Fighter)
http://www.dakotacom.net/~strange/
http://www.starwars.com/      
L'dition spciale de la Guerre des
toiles,Nascar2,Grandprix2,Indycar2.Comment peut-on vivre mieux?
Que la force soit avec toi, jamais!
Excuser-moi pour ma pauvre syntaxe anglaise(Je parle Fran?ais)