rec.autos.simulators

Then of course, I thought, that's a hell of a long trawl in order to
give me a better understanding of car setups.  First I've got to go
through all that programming learning curve before I get anywhere near
the stage where I can start creating my own car with proper physics to
boot.  A hell of a lot of hard work!

So, maybe there's a shortcut?  Does all this sim creation help with
understanding the finer points of car setup anyway and, if so, would
anyone of the sim writers here consider creating a sim that would help
disect the finer points of this esoteric art?

What I had in mind was a sim where you could enable/disable certain
parts of the physics engine and then go out and run a few laps to see
how dramatically the handling of the car changes.  As a for instance,
there is a thread discussing ARBs and how they affect the physics.
Wouldn't it be nice if a dumby like myself could actually be able to try
out driving a car with and without ARBs so I could get a better handle
on what they are supposed to do.  The same goes for suspension,
dampers, you name it, etc.

It certainly sounds like a useful learning tool to me, so have I stirred
any creative juices in some of the physics engine gurus around here?  Or
is it just a complete waste of time?  What say you guys?
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

"Peter Ives" > What I had in mind was a sim where you could enable/disable
certain
   One way to achieve what you are looking for is to move the setup elements
to the extremes.  Take a known setup, and change one item to it's full
movement, i.e. drop the springs to the lowest setting , then run some laps,
then raise the springs to the highest settings.  going from one extreme to
another may help isolate what each portion of the setup contributes to car
behaivor..
  (of course this is comming from a guy who regularly drives in a slightly
concentric random pattern that often results in fences moving into the
desired direction of travel.)
dave henrie

Glen Pittman

  It definately helps understand how setup works because you're in there
implementing every little effect yourself, and often times the effects come in
one at a time.  You really get a lot of insight into what really does what
because you see the mathematical relationships between different things.  For
instance, you can eliminate the camber effects so you can see what spring rates
do to the handling, then let dynamic camber come back in and see how that
effects things, etc..  I play around with mine quite a bit doing exactly what
you've descibed.

 Yes, it takes a long time just to do a decent car model, especially if you
haven't written a program before.  I've been at mine for two years now, and
that was after doing the drag racing simulation progam, so I already had some
basics down at the start.  However, the two years included the time learning
most of the 3-D graphics programming, vector/matrix calculations and so on.  Of
course, if you could work on it full time with all the info out there now, it
wouldn't take that long.  When I started there wasn't much out there to look at
(that I was aware of, anyway), so I had to figure out most of the stuff
independently, which takes quite a bit longer obviously.

 I think it's a good idea though.  I've been at this with the purpose in mind
of creating something where you could basically design the whole car yourself
and just go crazy.  That would include being able to disconnect ARB's, etc..
It can get pretty complicated quickly though when you're able to adjust
suspension arm lengths and so forth.  Still, I usually just copy one suspension
system over to a new car, then tweak it from there, so it's not too bad.  

Todd Wasson
---
Performance Simulations
Drag Racing and Top Speed Prediction
Software
http://PerformanceSimulations.Com

My little car sim screenshots:
http://performancesimulations.com/scnshot4.htm

Copying AI behavior is a disgrace to your own intelligence. :)

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

I'd say so, yes. In my own Racer, I can completely eliminate ARBs by
setting them at 0, and will introduce a 'camber' on/off flag so you
can ditch camber effects (mostly for debugging, but useful for what
you're (Peter) looking for).

I wouldn't go for programming a sim, although it does help; it's too
much work and probably too frustrating compared to the useful effects.
I'd rather then just read some books and learn the mathematical and
practical effects the things have on one another. Although indeed a
sim gives 'feeling' to mathematical relationships that you can't
obtain from a book.

Ruud van Gaal
Free car sim: http://www.racer.nl/
Pencil art  : http://www.marketgraph.nl/gallery/

I'm sure studying all those formulae, before getting down to the
programming nitty-gritty is a great help once you get a handle on how
they work in the 'real world', but like you say, as much as I'd love to
spend hours and hours programming my own, I just don't have that kind of
time. (Maybe when I retire, eh?).

And I still think this is a great idea, the ultimate d-i-y sim car
physics setup and testing engine.  'Turn yourself from a clueless
spannerhead into setup guru with this fantastic aid to car setup and all
its idiosyncracies.  Eek out those extra tenths in other sims by
eliminating push, oversteer understeer, tyre wear and more because now
YOU know how it all goes together.!!!' Gee, it practically rolls of the
tongue... practically.  :)
--
Peter Ives
Remove ALL_STRESS only before sending me an email