rec.autos.simulators

by **Max Beha** » Sun, 15 May 1994 08:48:00

I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really
is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I
put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I
geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I
created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San
Marino track looking for answers.
What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was
impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through
Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on
the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from
having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing
in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there
are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight.
It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of
the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there
would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really
doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or
just letting go of the joystick.
I rest my case. :)

--
Max Behara
Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

by **M A Tayl** » Tue, 17 May 1994 18:16:58

> |> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really
> |> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I
> |> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I
> |> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I
> |> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San
> |> Marino track looking for answers.
> |> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was
> |> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through
> |> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on
> |> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from
> |> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing
> |> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there
> |> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight.
> |> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of
> |> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there
> |> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really
> |> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or
> |> just letting go of the joystick.
> |> I rest my case. :)
> |>
> |>
> |> --
> |> Max Behara
> |> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
> |> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
> |> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

> Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would com> e into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects?

> Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car.

> Allen G. Oberhauser ........ Animator ........ Engineering Animation, Inc.

> "You don't realize you're famous until you get a
> letter from some guy in Ames,Iowa." Juli Furtado

I agree totally with Allen, how can you judge what happened by playing a
computer game?

I can only assume you are joking.

Mike.

by **Richard Quer** » Tue, 17 May 1994 23:24:17

: Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects?

: Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car.

While I don't think the game gives a totally realistic expression of
how tough a corner really is, it *has* been said by many people that
Tamburello *is* an easy corner. F1GP seems to confirm that as
well. I think that is the point being made. Not that any joe-blow
could take the turn in a real F1 car. The point is that it seems hard
to believe that driver error would be the cause in a turn like that.

BTW, F1GP does model the effects of weight transfer on all 4 wheels in
a turn as well as under braking and acceleration and reacts
differently under changing fuel load as well. It was based on the
analysis of the 1990 Footwork/Arrows F1car. I think it *is* a pretty
good way of judging the geometry of a turn. The gearing and speeds
through the turns are also pretty realistic. You can see this by
watching the in-car TV shots at the various tracks as well as the
telemetry when they bother showing it. A lot of people could
appreciate the tracks a lot more if they played around with F1GP/WC as
well. (same goes for Indycar), rather than just seeing it for 2hrs on
TV.

RQ
--

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M Y O P I N I O N S A R E E X A C T L Y T H A T

by **Cameron How** » Tue, 17 May 1994 02:10:55

There was quite a lot of discussion on rec.autos.sport about Patrick Head's
remark that Senna made an error. He stated that Senna lifted in the corner,
which we know will produce a lot less downforce, esp when doing 190+ mph
but we all concluded that would produce _oversteer_ while in fact
Senna left the track with understeer. Last I heard, Williams denied any
mechanical failure. Still havent got the latest on the driver error
story. I think it got to the point where the oversteer might have been
over-corrected by Senna to cause him to go off, but no concrete facts at
hand at the moment. Your test with F1GP would not show the very fine
stability limit inherent with a low-suspension, the car bottoming out
through the resurfaced part of Tamburello, the effect of the diffuser in
assisting downforce, the effect of suddenly lifting off the throttle at
190+, the cooler tyres (after the safety car had been out) etc. Otherwise
I'd agree with you that Tamburello presents no driving difficulty at all.

Cheers, Cameron.

by **Allen Oberhaus** » Tue, 17 May 1994 11:16:24

|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really
|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I
|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I
|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I
|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San
|> Marino track looking for answers.
|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was
|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through
|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on
|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from
|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing
|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there
|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight.
|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of
|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there
|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really
|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or
|> just letting go of the joystick.
|> I rest my case. :)
|>
|>
|> --
|> Max Behara
|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects?

Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car.

Allen G. Oberhauser ........ Animator ........ Engineering Animation, Inc.

"You don't realize you're famous until you get a
letter from some guy in Ames,Iowa." Juli Furtado

by **THE STEINBERGER SORCER** » Wed, 18 May 1994 00:06:14

However, I did the same thing, and if He were to lose steering control in
tambuerello, I could recreat the accident, angle and all, by just continuing
straight. My point-Your point is correct. The steering, most likely, would
have had to fail in order to recreate that accident.

by **Stephen Fergus** » Wed, 18 May 1994 09:32:07

Try your test again with normal front wings and no rear wing. Sort of
like losing the downforce at the back from lifting (or losing the effect
of the diffuser). Different story. Back end twitches, and if you
try to catch it you go straight off.
--

Stephen Ferguson

"There's a madness to my method"

by **Max Beha** » Wed, 18 May 1994 10:53:25

>However, I did the same thing, and if He were to lose steering control in
>tambuerello, I could recreat the accident, angle and all, by just continuing
>straight. My point-Your point is correct. The steering, most likely, would
>have had to fail in order to recreate that accident.

I tried that as well but didn't post it. Just let go of the
joystick and the car plows into the wall at a shallow angle. All you lose
is the front wing however.

--
Max Behara
Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

by **Max Beha** » Thu, 19 May 1994 08:18:50

>Try your test again with normal front wings and no rear wing. Sort of
>like losing the downforce at the back from lifting (or losing the effect
>of the diffuser). Different story. Back end twitches, and if you
>try to catch it you go straight off.

Tried it. Massive oversteer. Spun out in Tamburello every time.
Never went straight off.

--
Max Behara
Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

by **786** » Mon, 23 May 1994 03:10:11

>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really
>|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I
>|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I
>|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I
>|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San
>|> Marino track looking for answers.
>|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was
>|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through
>|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on
>|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from
>|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing
>|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there
>|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight.
>|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of
>|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there
>|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really
>|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or
>|> just letting go of the joystick.
>|> I rest my case. :)
>|>
>|>
>|> --
>|> Max Behara
>|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
>|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
>|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

>Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects?

>Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car.

I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless.

by **Ayrton Senna forever.** » Mon, 23 May 1994 06:18:18

>>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really
>>|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I
>>|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I
>>|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I
>>|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San
>>|> Marino track looking for answers.
>>|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was
>>|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through
>>|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on
>>|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from
>>|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing
>>|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there
>>|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight.
>>|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of
>>|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there
>>|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really
>>|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or
>>|> just letting go of the joystick.
>>|> I rest my case. :)
>>|>
>>|>
>>|> --
>>|> Max Behara
>>|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
>>|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
>>|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

>>Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect (which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests), fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic effects?

>>Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking assist) setting with the default car.

>I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless.

This is not correct. F1GP simulates the Tamburello turn quite accurately and it
is indeed a left hander as on the real circuit. I think you are mistaking one
of the other turns in the game to be tumburello. That is the Rettiflio turn in
the game which comes following the tamburello turn and does turn right. By the
way I tried a setup in Imola that gave me a lot of problems on 6th gear rush
down to Tosa. The car just totally gets out of control if make sudden movements
on the wheel (virtual pilot yoke). I had wing settings of 53/33 and break bias
of 3 in the rear. The problems did not arise until I started the race.
Fortunately I didn't have problems clearing tamuburello but if I jerked the
wheel sharpely right at Rettiflio that did it I flew of the track towards the
wall near Tosa. Maybe someone else should try it too. Later...

Anand

by **Max Beha** » Tue, 24 May 1994 04:01:48

Look again. Tamburello is a left hander in WC. If you can't get
that right then I don't think anything else you wrote is valid either.

--
Max Behara
Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
"The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John Gilmore
Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

by **Ayrton Senna forever.** » Thu, 26 May 1994 07:45:31

>>Path:
>>dragon.acadiau.ca!nstn.ns.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utcsri!utnut!cs.utexas.edu!h
>>owland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!promus.com!promus.com!not-for-mai
>>l

>>Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
>>Subject: Re: F1GP Senna & Tamburello. Driver Error?
>>Date: 21 May 1994 13:10:11 -0500
>>Organization: Promus Companies, Inc., Memphis, TN
>>Lines: 37

>>NNTP-Posting-Host: stargate.promus.com

>>>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really
>>>|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I
>>>|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I
>>>|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I
>>>|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San
>>>|> Marino track looking for answers.
>>>|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was
>>>|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through
>>>|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on
>>>|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from
>>>|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing
>>>|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there
>>>|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight.
>>>|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of
>>>|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there
>>>|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really
>>>|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or
>>>|> just letting go of the joystick.
>>>|> I rest my case. :)
>>>|>
>>>|>
>>>|> --
>>>|> Max Behara
>>>|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
>>>|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John
>>Gilmore
>>>|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

>>>Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game
>>to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you
>>really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect
>>(which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests),
>>fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic
>>effects?

>>>Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is
>>possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking
>>assist) setting with the default car.

>>I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and
>>the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing
>>Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since
>>Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to
>>call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless.

>I completely agree. You would have to be rediculous to even think about
>making a comparison like this!

>The Caminator

I don't want to be repetitive her but I posted a note just a few days ago
saying this was not correct. F1GP perfectly simulates the tamburello turn.
It is indeed a lefthander and not a right hander. I believe the original
poster mistook Rettiflio (or Villeneuve) the right hander following Tamburello
to be Tamburello. Tamburello is taken so fast that is almost is mistaken to
be part of the straight in F1GP. Go back and redrive the part you will
understand. Later...

Anand.

by **RON BEZANS** » Thu, 26 May 1994 04:05:58

>Path:
>dragon.acadiau.ca!nstn.ns.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!utcsri!utnut!cs.utexas.edu!h
>owland.reston.ans.net!pipex!sunic!EU.net!uunet!promus.com!promus.com!not-for-mai
>l

>Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
>Subject: Re: F1GP Senna & Tamburello. Driver Error?
>Date: 21 May 1994 13:10:11 -0500
>Organization: Promus Companies, Inc., Memphis, TN
>Lines: 37

>NNTP-Posting-Host: stargate.promus.com

>>|> I tried a little experiment to see how dangerous Tamburello really
>>|> is. I ran F1GP with steering and traction help off. (I use a joystick) I
>>|> put on 0 wings front and rear. I put on the slipperiest tires (A). I
>>|> geared the car for the high speeds that 0 wings would produce. In short I
>>|> created the most undriveable setup imaginable and then took to the San
>>|> Marino track looking for answers.
>>|> What I learned was what I expected and more! The car was
>>|> impossible to get through a single corner or chicane but I sailed through
>>|> Tamburello and the following curve (Villeneuve) at well over 200 mph on
>>|> the first try without so much as a hiccup. To me this absolves Senna from
>>|> having made a driving error. F1GP tracks are precisely like the real thing
>>|> in shape so even if the car dynamics are not totally realistic and there
>>|> are no bumps it still prooves that Tamburello is essentially a straight.
>>|> It certainly feels like one when running F1GP. It's the easiest part of
>>|> the entire track. I can not believe the allegations that an error there
>>|> would even matter. You can take any line you like through it. It really
>>|> doesn't matter what you do short of purposely steering onto the grass or
>>|> just letting go of the joystick.
>>|> I rest my case. :)
>>|>
>>|>
>>|> --
>>|> Max Behara
>>|> Molly: "DS+MC" Bt+W C 1.3 X+++ L W- C+ I+++ T+ H+ S+ V+ P- E- A+
>>|> "The Net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it." - John
>Gilmore
>>|> Ayrton Senna (1960-1994) Roland Ratzenberger (1962-1994)

>>Are you kidding me? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??!! You expect a pc entertianment game
>to simulate the conditions of actually negotiating Tamburello at 180mph? Do you
>really think that F1GP simulates the actual bumps, exhaust-blown diffuser effect
>(which would come into play if, indeed, Senna did lift, as P. Head suggests),
>fuel load (bottoming out), and myrad other subtle, yet important dynamic
>effects?

>>Granted, F1GP is great fun, but lets stay realistic here. I mean, it is
>possible to win races at most venues in the amaetur (sp?) (steering, braking
>assist) setting with the default car.
>I think if you take a close look you will notice that the real San Marino GP and
>the F1GP game run the Imola track in opposite directions. In the real thing
>Tamburello is left hander and in the game it is a right hander and since
>Tamburrelo is NOT a constant radius turn (it's close but not close enough to
>call it one) this sor'ta makes any comparisons pointless.

I completely agree. You would have to be rediculous to even think about
making a comparison like this!

The Caminator

by Ti » Sat, 28 May 1994 11:21:36

I agree, also F1GP is a great simulator but thats it , ONLY a simulators
plus anyway F1 (& even IC drivers) are under pressures of 3-5 g's
a recent French study said F1 drivers taking clockwise corners are
under pressures of 8 tonnes on the neck muscles and 5 tonnes for
anti-clockwise corners. Besides even with all the features of F1GP
turned off the game will still do many things for you a REAL F1 car
wouldn't do. Lets face it unless so one has done some form of single
seater racing round a circuit (NOT an oval) they really can't make a
judgement, I know I can't judge, I like to play with all the easy bits
on but It's better & certainly faster if you turn off suggested gears