rec.autos.simulators

by **Mark Seer** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

A cable connection is not the issue. you could have the fastest connection
in the world but it don't mean a damned thing if there is a bad hub 15 hops
down the line.

Mark

> Ron,

> I do have a dial up connection with Concentric (as well as my newly
aquiered
> cable connection), and I did not say that there was anything wrong with
> them. But, I AM a SERIOUS gamer when it comes to Racing and I want my
online
> experience to be the absolute best it can be. I am tierd of people taking
me
> out because of warps or BLAMMING warp for wrecking the field. I'm sure
there
> will be MANY leagues availible for Dial up racers, and I will be part of
> them as well. I simply asked if there would be a league for Cable racers
to
> get the BEST posible racing expierence availible. I have raced with a
field
> of cable racers and the racing was SOLID as a ROCK.

> Cable connections are the future of our sport, Like it or Not !!!

> (P.S.) I don't have a garage (only a carport) or a 6 figure bank account
(I
> think there is about $800 in it) so please don't get so damn sarcastic and
> start calling people "clueless", they may be offended

> _

> Dave Long

> Memphis TN

> > I couldn't agree more Robert...
> > This is just another way to further segregate the allready thinly
> > spread on-line racing community..
> > I am sure this won't come to be, as any host that insists on only
> > allowing cable connections to his server, is not only clueless, but
> > also does not have the interests in promoting on-line play in mind at
> > all..
> > There is nothing at all wrong with a dial-up connection for a client
> > Robert, as you well know. :) and a dial-up connection can be equally
> > as good, or even better than a cable connection from a client's
> > viewpoint, when it is set up up right..
> > Maybe we should also ban anyone that doesn't have a 3 car garage and a
> > 6 figure bank account as well..!!!

> > Sort of reminds me of the hosts who insist on setting latency
> > restrictions in GPL to less than 550ms as well, etc.. (see clueless)
> > <G>

> > Cheers,
> > Ron

> > > Sorry if I'm stupid, but why restrict them to cable users? A regular
> > > telephone modem may not have the capability of hosting 30 cars in a
> > race
> > > but you can join without causing troubles to others ? Right ?

> > > Robert

> > > > This is a good idea.

> > > > -Larry

> > > > > Are there any N3 leagues being setup ? If so are any being
> > > restricted to
> > > > > Cable racers?

> > > > > --

> > > > > Dave Long

> > > > > Memphis TN

> > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> > > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

by **Michael Barlo** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> I usually do not get involved in these argue-complain type posts but
> Ron where did you get your info below?? I have both a good 56kb
> dial-up modem with a good ISP & I also have a top cable modem
> provider. There is no comparison!
> 56kb {basically} is a mis-named. Please check upload-download
> connections.. It will not reach 56kb.. Now a cable can transfer as
> little as 125kb/sec up 250kb/sec down Or as mine 256kb/sec up
> and 526kb/sec down, maxed!
> It seems your comments "a dial-up connection can be equally as
> good, or even better than a cable connection from a client's view
> point, when it is set up up right.." Is not correct!!
> All constructive comments welcome.. All flames send to Billy C.
> Cheers Thom_j.

Several Cable users from my area, (Upstate NY), have been on my (cable)
host and every time they are on they have rock solid connections.
Probably because since we are all using the same ISP it's like a LAN
race. Those that connect with dial up modems are a hit and miss
situation. When GPL 1.1 and GSB 2 came out we were able to dictate who
was allowed to connect to us by a restricting latency. Ron and I did a
test.. he connected to my host with a relatively high ping. I followed
him around the track and watched for any anomalies. There were none
that I could see. Since his computer and connection and my computer and
connection are set up for racing online, Ping values have little to no
effect as to how solid the cars are. It's those that have not set their
computers and connections up for online racing where all the problems
come from.

As far as comparing KB sizes, it's true that Cable users will have
better latencies in general then dial up users. however, that is only
true for those that have good dial up ISP's and good cable ISP's. Then
add in the routing and then the differences are hit and miss for both
parties... dial up and cable.

Apparently, all the hops from here in NY to there in Australia are
great. If the routing should change to include one bad hop then that's
where the trouble starts. You can have 10 gig/second upload and
download, but if there's one bad hop. you might just as well be using a
300 baud modem.

So, as far as a cable user league, I do like the concept!! I'll join
that league ASAP!! but only if that league was used by cable users
using the same cable ISP here in Rochester/Syracuse.

--
=========================================
Mike Barlow of Barlow Racing?
=========================================
Racing online with the help of......

Race Communications Association
http://members.xoom.com/RCA/toc.html
Holodyne Engineering

Mystic Music

(have Your !!Name/Address!! placed here)

by **Richard G. Koehler Jr** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Hi George,

I usually have a .05 to .10 latency when connecting to another cable modem
no matter where in the world they are. That's what I get between my two
PC's with a serial cable connection.

> online. What's the latency of cable modems?

--
Rich Koehler
rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com
killerk(at)home(dot)com

by **bean** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Yes, I think we should string up them dial-up users from the nearest tree. Oh
you dial-up users, I'll make you pay, if its the last thing I do. BWUH HA HA
HA HA Ha HA (add in thunder for back ground music)

> Frankly, because we want to :)

> -Larry

> > Sorry if I'm stupid, but why restrict them to cable users? A regular
> > telephone modem may not have the capability of hosting 30 cars in a race
> > but you can join without causing troubles to others ? Right ?

> > Robert

> > > This is a good idea.

> > > -Larry

> > > > Are there any N3 leagues being setup ? If so are any being
> > restricted to
> > > > Cable racers?

> > > > --

> > > > Dave Long

> > > > Memphis TN

> > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

by **Bill Bollinge** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Thom this actually a 100% correct statement. You could have the fastest
internet connection in the world but if your provider and or cable modem
cannot produce CONSISTENT latency then it is going to be very warpy. On the
other hand a slow analog modem that delivers consistent latency could in
fact be better. It is just too hard to make blanket statements. Neither is
better nor worse than the other as a client.

Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard

by **Thad Failo** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Isn't one of the tricks of getting a good solid connect on a 56k modem to
actually force your connection to a 28.8? I know on TEN, some of the guys
suggested connecting at 19.2. That tells me that the quality / stability of
the connection is far more important then the latency. Granted the latency
may tell of a poor / unstable connection, but it is not always the case. I
agree that capping only hides the real killer. Personally, I have yet to do
any tweaking at all on my Dial-up connection (Dunn settings and such). The
max I have ever seen, with my 56k, is a 28.8 connection in the Dial-up
status window. I have yet to see major problems with my online racing. I
should also say, that no one has ever complained about me warping. I can
also say, that when my ISP (Micron) has a bad day, I do too. Oh, just to
clarify, if it makes a difference or not, Micron just went national (US).
Before that it was just another local ISP for me.

Thad

> Hi Doug,
> In GPL, clients with a latency figure of up to 550 ms, can be as steady
> as a rock, providing they have a good quality connection to the host.
> Obviously the lower the better, but to set your allowable ping at 300
> or less, is really overdoing it a tad, in GPL on-line... :)
> I have raced on-line ever since the day GPL was first released and i
> normally race GPL through USA based hosts, where my ping times are
> usually in the range from 420 to 550 or so, with occasional pings in
> the 600 range, depending on net conditions etc.. ( i live in
> Austraia)
> Myself and a few others have done extensive testing in regards to how
> latency and quality effect on-line play in GPL.
> I run in a USA based league, so i had to get my act together in regards
> to connection issues, based on latency and quality issues...
> In GPL F1, providing the client has a good and error free as possible
> connection and has taken steps to tune his/her DUN and modem for
> on-line play, then perfect. warp free racing can be had with pings of
> up to 550 ms.. (Papy has done a really great job with GPL on-line)
> In F2, it is possible to get away with pings up to 600, and in F3,
> believe it or not, warp free races are possible up to a latency of 700
> ms, providing steps have been taken, like i explained above..

> Warping and poor on-line play are the result and mixture of poor
> quality, lost packets, bad routers, poor latency, bad ISPs etc. etc.
> It is better to have a medium latency figure with a good quality rating
> than a low latency figure with a poor quality rating..

> Finally i apologise to you and anyone else who may have figured that
> they belong in the clueless catagory, through having latency capping
> set too low in GPL on their hosts, but setting the latency capping
> below 550, is not going to cure poor on-line play.
> "Clueless", may have been a bit harsh, but at least it got some
> response from a couple of concerned hosts. :)
> If just a few hosts look at this post and try changing their latency
> capping to a sensible level, then we as a sim racing community, are in
> front..
> Education regarding connection issues is needed more than latency
> capping..
> Latency capping doesn't cure the problems, it hides them...
> Cheers,
> Ron

> > I am a clueless host who sets latency restrictions on my GPL races.
> I
> > further my idiocy by setting them to less than 300ms. I have great
> races,
> > very few cars winking in and out.

> > There's something about all this latency talk I'd really like to
> know.
> > I've read several posts indicating that you can have perfectly decent
> races
> > with latencies of 550ms, or even greater, and that drivers with these
> > latencies have no effect whatsoever on the quality of the race for
> other
> > drivers. I'm completely confused on this issue. All my on-line
> > experience, and not just with GPL, has been contrary to this. It's
> always
> > been the person with the high ping who's winking in and out. So,
> does it
> > come down to purely ping, or is it the quality of the connection, in
> terms
> > of consistency, that's the issue? I could see if a person had a
> > rock-steady latency of 550ms and never wavered, it would not be a
> problem.
> > But that seldom seems to be the case in my experience. The ping will
> be
> > all over the map, anywhere from under 100ms to over 1000ms. Is that
> where
> > the problems start? Any enlightenment on this topic would be greatly
> > appreciated.

> > As for cable only leagues, I remember when you could race N2 on
> Hawaii if
> > you had a decent modem and could afford the bucks for the call. I
> didn't
> > and couldn't, but I didn't bemoan the ones who could. That's life.

> > I don't have a garage. And I'm not really clueless.

> > Zog

by **George Lew** » Thu, 23 Sep 1999 04:00:00

That's pretty good... with my ISDN I'm seeing .08 to .19, sometimes
lower (mainly remembering from TEN, having only jumped into N3's
online racing a few times to see how it was).

>Hi George,

>I usually have a .05 to .10 latency when connecting to another cable modem
>no matter where in the world they are. That's what I get between my two
>PC's with a serial cable connection.

>> online. What's the latency of cable modems?

>--
>Rich Koehler
>rgkoehler(at)lucent(dot)com
>killerk(at)home(dot)com

by **rgra..** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

You got it =:-D ...now if I could find that darn %$/& bad hub !

Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.

by **'John' Joao Sil** » Fri, 24 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Hi Dave,

I don't know how much GPL online racing you've done, nor do I own N3 yet so
I'm not sure how good it's online racing performance is compared to GPL..

But just this weekend I hosted a GPL online league race with 11 drivers
on my ADSL connection in Seattle, which Ron took part in, connected all the
way from Australia with a ping around 600ms if I remember correctly.

Ron spent the better part of the 27 lap Pro race glued to my rear-end racing
wheel to wheel with me around Mosport with no evident warping or other
lag induced problems.

My own opinion of GPL online racing, and my hosting and racing experience
with it, lead me to believe that "Latency" (how many ms of lag there is)
is not the main problem in online GPL racing warp, but more importantly the
quality of the connection to the host (i.e. how much packetloss). I've raced
many times on VROC with racers from Australia and Europe who were able to
maintain warpless connections to my GPL server, while at the same time other
racers closer to me in places like California were warping all over the place
from packetloss due to poor ISP's that have bad connections to the Internet
backbone resulting in lots of packetloss on their connections.

If this online performance is similar with N3, then perhaps limiting your
league to only cable users might not result in the outcome you hope for,
since there are cable ISP's that suffer from packetloss despite a very
low ping, at the same time you might be keeping out many good dialup racers
or racers in other continents who have very solid connections and who
may be very talented and would make a good addition to your League.

You say:
"Cable connections are the future of our sport, Like it or Not !!!"

While we in North America are lucky and see Cable and DSL connections
become more and more common everyday, the rest of the world is still
for the most part, a dialup and ISDN world and will remain so for the next
few years, leagues which limit themselves to racers only with fast
connections may be limiting the talent of the racers you race against, to
only local racers and those lucky enough to have cable modem connections
available.

I for one am glad that Ron was able to give me a damn good race around
Mosport this weekend. High Latency or not I've really come to respect
good racers from Australia (there are a few of them), and I sure am
glad for the opportunity to race against them which is very possible to
do without warp as long as there is no packetloss high latency or not.

Seeyas on the track.

--John (Joao) Silva

>Ron,

>I do have a dial up connection with Concentric (as well as my newly aquiered
>cable connection), and I did not say that there was anything wrong with
>them. But, I AM a SERIOUS gamer when it comes to Racing and I want my online
>experience to be the absolute best it can be. I am tierd of people taking me
>out because of warps or BLAMMING warp for wrecking the field. I'm sure there
>will be MANY leagues availible for Dial up racers, and I will be part of
>them as well. I simply asked if there would be a league for Cable racers to
>get the BEST posible racing expierence availible. I have raced with a field
>of cable racers and the racing was SOLID as a ROCK.

>Cable connections are the future of our sport, Like it or Not !!!

>(P.S.) I don't have a garage (only a carport) or a 6 figure bank account (I
>think there is about $800 in it) so please don't get so damn sarcastic and
>start calling people "clueless", they may be offended

>_

>Dave Long

>Memphis TN

rec.autos.simulators

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