rec.autos.simulators

by **Kostis Kottaki** » Fri, 03 Sep 1999 04:00:00

After 4.30 hours downlaoding I installed the demo no problem the intro move
is the best racing game intro so far,the graphics is also very impresive..
very good detail car and very good looking course. But!!! the handling is
no way that I expect ! The car looks very light and flips very very easy and
spins even when you just braking!!
Also its almost imposibble to 'prepare' the car for the next turn . And on
last thing the co-driver must shout the the road and not to talk like he is
talking to the phone or something very unrealistic too!. CAllin McRAy rally
is by far better in those sections much better feeling..

comments ?

kostis

by **Mark Daviso** » Fri, 03 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>After 4.30 hours downlaoding I installed the demo no problem the intro
move
>is the best racing game intro so far,the graphics is also very impresive..
>very good detail car and very good looking course. But!!! the handling is
>no way that I expect ! The car looks very light and flips very very easy
and
>spins even when you just braking!!
>Also its almost imposibble to 'prepare' the car for the next turn . And on
>last thing the co-driver must shout the the road and not to talk like he is
>talking to the phone or something very unrealistic too!. CAllin McRAy rally
>is by far better in those sections much better feeling..

>comments ?

Generally agree. Trying to figure out what it is about the handling that
doesn't feel right (other than the car's flyaway nature) and I think it's
just that there doesn't feel like there's any mass there. I couldn't manage
to get any sort of pendulum effect going on. It's like all of the weight of
the car is over the front wheels. I appreciate that the weight split is
probably biased to the front but I feel like the rear is weightless. Feels
much like all previous attempts by Europress on this score.
OTOH I love the rendering of the Ibiza - especially as my everyday car is an
Ibiza Cupra Sport. It's just the most detailed car model I think I've seen
in a computer game. I also like the course. Very atmospheric. If only the
handling issue could get sorted out a bit more - CMR wins there so far.
Don't like lens flare (switchable on options please). The wheelspin seems
about right. I've got video footage I shot of an Evo2 Ibiza on last year's
RAC coming out of a hairpin and it just could not find purchase on the
gravel - took it ages to get going.

Maybe more later when I've played some more...

Mark
Reading, UK

by **Worker Workin** » Fri, 03 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> Generally agree. Trying to figure out what it is about the handling that
> doesn't feel right (other than the car's flyaway nature) and I think it's
> just that there doesn't feel like there's any mass there. I couldn't manage
> to get any sort of pendulum effect going on. It's like all of the weight of
> the car is over the front wheels. I appreciate that the weight split is
> probably biased to the front but I feel like the rear is weightless. Feels
> much like all previous attempts by Europress on this score.
> OTOH I love the rendering of the Ibiza - especially as my everyday car is an
> Ibiza Cupra Sport. It's just the most detailed car model I think I've seen
> in a computer game. I also like the course. Very atmospheric. If only the
> handling issue could get sorted out a bit more - CMR wins there so far.
> Don't like lens flare (switchable on options please). The wheelspin seems
> about right. I've got video footage I shot of an Evo2 Ibiza on last year's
> RAC coming out of a hairpin and it just could not find purchase on the
> gravel - took it ages to get going.

Thinking back on the limited amount of time I spent with the demo I
would agree that the car has very little momentum. I would try to power
through some turns and, as the previous poster noted) I just could NOT
set up for the upcoming turn.

Some turns would be very easy to get through but others sent me flipping
over or swinging wildly in circles.

I tried to note the terrain and see if I was on gravel or something but
I couldn't predict my car's reaction to any turn except by driving VERY
slowly.

I spent quite a bit of time staring at the graphics. The road textures
were great and I loved bumping around the dirt/rock areas. I found the
construction vehicle wonderfully intimidating as I sped towards it,
wondering if I would squeak by. There was plenty of room but it still
got me sweating.

by **Zoll** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

The german magazine PC Games, which also released the demo on CD, stresses
out, that the faulty calculation of gravity is an issue, which caused some
months delay in the development of the game until now.
I don't really understand, why they released a demo with these faulty
physics, but at least they are working on it... let's hope...

CU
Zolli

by **Jan Verschuere** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

Could it be that the brake key also invokes the handbrake??

There's also something weird going on with gravity as acceleration in the
horizontal plane seems ok, but in the vertical the acceleration constant
isn't 9.81 metres per second squared. When you get airborne you don't fall,
but gingerly float back down. Heavy control lag seems to present as well.

As for the pace notes, I've NEVER, EVER heard the word chicane mentioned in
the***pit of a rally car (and I have read out pace notes to a friend on
several occasions). Most infuriatingly, the severity is not indicated.
Missing as well are cut and don't cut indications (as if the physics model
allows it!!! Grip doesn't seem detemined by the loaded wheel!!). Also in
some instances, coners are called as being of a certain class, but when
taking them at the speed they can be taken at, you're left with too little
space to slow down for the next.... e.g. right 1 - 30 - right 5 (dunno if
this occurs in the demo, but you get the idea).

If it's more drivable with a wheel, it might be a fun diversion, but other
than that....

BTW: you might be amazed about how little grip a powerfull front wheel drive
car has on a loose surface. In the demo, the problem is obviously compounded
by the control method.

Jan.
----

<Snip>

by **Stefan Soderhol** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

----8<---
> As for the pace notes, I've NEVER, EVER heard the word chicane mentioned in
> the***pit of a rally car (and I have read out pace notes to a friend on
> several occasions). Most infuriatingly, the severity is not indicated.
> Missing as well are cut and don't cut indications (as if the physics model
> allows it!!! Grip doesn't seem detemined by the loaded wheel!!). Also in
> some instances, coners are called as being of a certain class, but when
> taking them at the speed they can be taken at, you're left with too little
> space to slow down for the next.... e.g. right 1 - 30 - right 5 (dunno if
> this occurs in the demo, but you get the idea).

I agree with the chicane word, another problem with the use of chicane
is that they don't say if it's a left-right or a right-left chicane,
could be useful....
As for your "right 1 - 30 - right 5"-problem, I don't agree as long as
they call out the second turn too way before the first corner, then it's
up to you to deal with it. Otherwise I find it great that a rallygame
finally call out the distances between the corners, I sure missed that
in CMR.
One thing though, here in Sweden we use reversed numbers for
"number-notes" e.g. for turns that are 1 in CMR and RC, we use 6
instead, is it common to use the system in CMR and RC for real
rallydrivers anywhere? After lookin at Eurosport last night with incar
coverge from the Neste Rally in Finland (wow!!), it seems like most
drivers that use "number-notes" use the system I'm udes to, ofcause I
have no clue what guys like Sains are using, my spanish ain't that good
;)

/Stefan
--
==========================================================

Software Developer Phone(Work): +46-(0)243-886 01
Columna AB Phone(Cell): +46-(0)70- 665 75 67

"Computers are like airconditioners; they stop working
if you open Windows"
==========================================================

by **Martin Urs** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

On Fri, 03 Sep 1999 09:28:17 +0200, Stefan Soderholm

>One thing though, here in Sweden we use reversed numbers for
>"number-notes" e.g. for turns that are 1 in CMR and RC, we use 6
>instead, is it common to use the system in CMR and RC for real
>rallydrivers anywhere? After lookin at Eurosport last night with incar
>coverge from the Neste Rally in Finland (wow!!), it seems like most
>drivers that use "number-notes" use the system I'm udes to, ofcause I
>have no clue what guys like Sains are using, my spanish ain't that good

The pace note system in CMR is the complete opposite of what
Nicky Grist actually uses. Whereas a "2" in the game refers to a
pretty fast corner, a "2" in real life refers to a recommended 2nd
gear corner. I don't know why Codemasters chose to use this system
and it confused me when I first started playing.

There are still other drivers (like Juha Kankkunen) who use
the old descriptions like "Easy left maybe, medium right, K left" when
calling corners.

Martin
Nigel Mansell RIP!

by **McKafr** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

hehehe ... :)

Sainz - Moya (Sainzs co-driver, co-pilot or whatever) , use the same thing
also ... higher number for faster corners .
...

Im spanish, and I tell you, there is no way to understand Moya in action :)

he is soooooo fast speaking ... (and he doesnt uses standard spanish)

some notes from Moya:

- sasar (read it as tzatzar ...) is a desviation from sacrificar
(sacrifice) used when you have a straight after a chicane .... 'sacrifice
the first one, and get a good exit speed from the second one'

- con fe this is real spanish, not invented words like 'sasar', is used
for full throttle corners wich doesnt seem to be full throttle corners :)
... means 'with commintment'

- ojo (read it as oho) means 'eye' maybe slippery surface or something
...

- ras : another Moya word :) used for 'cut' (doesnt mean rec
autos simulators :P )

- bota : some thing like bumps

- mano : hand ... hand brake

i usually see lot of of on board footage of rallying, I can tell you Moya
gives Sainz way much detailed information of the road ahead than any other
co-driver. Not sure about the finns, sweddish and german speaking ones
though ... ;)

McKafre De La Rosa

by **Sebastien Tixie** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> Could it be that the brake key also invokes the handbrake??

> There's also something weird going on with gravity as acceleration in the
> horizontal plane seems ok, but in the vertical the acceleration constant
> isn't 9.81 metres per second squared. When you get airborne you don't fall,
> but gingerly float back down. Heavy control lag seems to present as well.

Hi !

What i think :

Well, it's because there are using a 2D model physics on a 3D games.
So all verticals effects on car are not physics computation. It's like
Collin McRae , the car have no vertical inertia. In real world When a car climb
on a road
and jump on a bump it's not falling just before the bump, but continue
to fly a moment. In V-Rally2 the model physics is 3D, and lot's of gamer are
not happy because the car go in lot of flip when u touch edge at high speed.
Because, gravity is to low on VR2, ( i'm on of the VR2 developer ).

Also there is no angular inertia un RAlly99 : when the car turn on his vertical
axis u have an angular speed so u must have an angular inertia. That's meen
that when the car turn and u stop to turn the wheel, the car continue to
turn a little ( inertia ), and if u make a big turn the car continue to
turn a lot ( that's why u have turn the wheel at the oposite way ). U have
to do that also if the car slip on is side.

In rally 99 when u stop to turn the car have no angular inertia,
that's why sim pilot are very confuse. And that's why VRally2 is much playable
than VRally 1, we have decrease angular inertia.

i hope you understand my poor english. :o)

--
====================================
Sebastien Tixier - Game Developer

by **Steve Ferguso** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

: There are still other drivers (like Juha Kankkunen) who use
: the old descriptions like "Easy left maybe, medium right, K left" when
: calling corners.

Maybe I'm wrong, but did I hear Kankkunen's co-driver calling out pace
notes in *English* with an obvious Finnish accent? Is English becoming
the international motorsport language, just like in aviation?

Stephen

by **Jan Verschuere** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

It doesn't call out the second corner in advance... maybe I should have been
more clear.

I think both number systems are in use. I actually prefer the higher number
for the more severe turn, but that's personal preference. Would have been a
nice feature had we been able to select the system we wanted to use. ;-))

Jan.
----

<snip>
> I agree with the chicane word, another problem with the use of chicane
> is that they don't say if it's a left-right or a right-left chicane,
> could be useful....
> As for your "right 1 - 30 - right 5"-problem, I don't agree as long as
> they call out the second turn too way before the first corner, then it's
> up to you to deal with it. Otherwise I find it great that a rallygame
> finally call out the distances between the corners, I sure missed that
> in CMR.
> One thing though, here in Sweden we use reversed numbers for
> "number-notes" e.g. for turns that are 1 in CMR and RC, we use 6
> instead, is it common to use the system in CMR and RC for real
> rallydrivers anywhere? After lookin at Eurosport last night with incar
> coverge from the Neste Rally in Finland (wow!!), it seems like most
> drivers that use "number-notes" use the system I'm udes to, ofcause I
> have no clue what guys like Sains are using, my spanish ain't that good

<snip>

by **Martin Urs** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

You are correct, sir! However...

Juha Kankkunen's use of English is his personal preference,
having been paired up with many English-speaking co-drivers in his
career (including one Nicky Grist during his Toyota days!). His
current co-driver (Juha Repo) is a Finn but, as you noticed, calls out
corners in English.

Tommi Makinen, on the other hand, still has his information
given in Finnish.

Martin
Nigel Mansell RIP!

by **Hena Hakkane** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

>: There are still other drivers (like Juha Kankkunen) who use
>: the old descriptions like "Easy left maybe, medium right, K left" when
>: calling corners.

>Maybe I'm wrong, but did I hear Kankkunen's co-driver calling out pace
>notes in *English* with an obvious Finnish accent? Is English becoming
>the international motorsport language, just like in aviation?

Kankkunen prefers English notes, as opposed to Tommi Makinen who prefers
them in Finnish. It must be all those years with Nicky Grist(sp?). Don't
think one can draw any conclutions from this about English becoming THE
language ...

Hena

by **Stefan Soderhol** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> hehehe ... :)

> Sainz - Moya (Sainzs co-driver, co-pilot or whatever) , use the same thing
> also ... higher number for faster corners .
> ...

> Im spanish, and I tell you, there is no way to understand Moya in action :)

> he is soooooo fast speaking ... (and he doesnt uses standard spanish)

> some notes from Moya:

> - sasar (read it as tzatzar ...) is a desviation from sacrificar
> (sacrifice) used when you have a straight after a chicane .... 'sacrifice
> the first one, and get a good exit speed from the second one'

> - con fe this is real spanish, not invented words like 'sasar', is used
> for full throttle corners wich doesnt seem to be full throttle corners :)
> ... means 'with commintment'

> - ojo (read it as oho) means 'eye' maybe slippery surface or something
> ...

> - ras : another Moya word :) used for 'cut' (doesnt mean rec
> autos simulators :P )

> - bota : some thing like bumps

> - mano : hand ... hand brake

> i usually see lot of of on board footage of rallying, I can tell you Moya
> gives Sainz way much detailed information of the road ahead than any other
> co-driver. Not sure about the finns, sweddish and german speaking ones
> though ... ;)

> McKafre De La Rosa

Thanks for the great info on Moyas pacenotes!
It's good to know that even you spanish guys don't understand him :)
Eventhough I don't understand a word I can listen to him for quite a
while, I'm jus tso impressed with the speed he calls out the notes and
the rhytm, it's far better than music! :)
How Carlos can keep up with him is another miracle...

/Cheers, Stefan
--
==========================================================

Software Developer Phone(Work): +46-(0)243-886 01
Columna AB Phone(Cell): +46-(0)70- 665 75 67

"Computers are like airconditioners; they stop working
if you open Windows"
==========================================================

by **Goy Larse** » Sat, 04 Sep 1999 04:00:00

> Kankkunen prefers English notes, as opposed to Tommi Makinen who prefers
> them in Finnish. It must be all those years with Nicky Grist(sp?). Don't
> think one can draw any conclutions from this about English becoming THE
> language ...

LOL, I saw some in-car footage of Carlos Sainz the other day, the "pace"
of the pace notes was something else, as you'd expect from to Spaniards
speaking Spanish :-)

--

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy

"Team Mirage" http://www.teammirage.com/
"The Pits" http://www.theuspits.com/

rec.autos.simulators

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