rec.autos.simulators

John,

        I was playing CPR lately and I wanted to try the
non-accelerated version, so I switched with F4 to software rendering
mode.  I could see all the way to the end of a straightaway, even if
the graphics look a little better in accelerated mode.  I then
switched back to D3D with F4.  I began playing with keys like +/= and
_/-, ctrl-f and ctrl-h to see what I could do to improve the frame
rate.  But then it struck me.

        As I was racing the D3D version I realized that I could not
see the end of a straightaway until it was too late, and I was banging
walls like crazy.  I tried cranking up the visibility with ctrl-H (or
F, I don't remember wich one pushes it away to 30) and saw no
difference.  I tried it several times and then I completely stopped my
car on the track to see if it had any effect.  I was in a part of the
circuit wich was crowded with trackside objects.  To my surprise,
nothing ever changed, there was always this kinda rectangle-shaped
void at the end of my horizon, where all walls and buildings
disappear.

        Is this normal?  What exactly do the ctrl-F and ctrl-H keys
do?  I really need to see the corners coming in order to react.  Of
course if I learn all tracks I will be able to drive anyway, but it's
a lot harder to learn tracks when you can't see them...  And of course
hitting the walls 20 or more times per turn can become a little
ennoying, preventing you from really appreciating the game.

I hope you can help me,

A. Renault

<snip>
% 3) CPR is version 1: our competition (all games you folks love) are further
% along. They've had longer to work out the bugs and problems than we have.
% While I don't expect you to cut us any slack because of that, it might help
% you understand where we're at.  Whenever you decide to enter a mature
% category, you have the daunting challenge of trying to catch up. You can
% either spend years developing a product, during which time your competition
% also matures and raises the bar you have to meet, thus sending you back to
% the drawing board repeatedly, or you can get something out on the street and
% revise it like crazy. In reality neither plan is optimal but the latter is a
% little more doable than the former here at MS. This doesn't mean you can
% ship an inferior V1 product, because you still have to compete on your own
% merits against the competition, but it does mean you sometimes have to stage
% your development process and goals into long-term milestones.
<snip>

Okay, let's go pre-r.a.s.  One of the first decent PC racing sims I
found was Grand Prix Ciruit by Accolade (circa 1988).  I don't recall
any major bugs.  Then came Indianapolis 500 the Simulation by Papyrus
(circa early 1990).  Again a great version 1 sim.  No real complaints,
no real bugs.  It included good AI and proper Yellow Flags.  I consider
World Circuit/Grand Prix by Microprose to be a version 1 sim.  Some
minor problems which were fixed with patches.  However, I don't recall
major shortcomings in the AI department (yellow flags don't really count
in F1 [and if they do the real drivers ignore them anyway <G>]).

I guess I just find it hard to believe that the AI in CPR needs the
attention it is getting via a patch.  To me this should have been a
number 1 priority for initial release.  Oval AI should be easier to
program than road circuit AI, yet in CPR it seems reversed.

In the Yellow Flag department, I can understand the "local yellow"
concept only for road circuits, but for ovals?  To leave this out seems
extremely short-sighted.  And to the best of my knowledge there has been
no comment from the development team about fixing this issue.  As a
matter of fact this issue was brought up quite a number of times here in
r.a.s. and was bascially ignored by your team.

I just think you are overstating the "trashing" real sims have gotten in
r.a.s.  When you say they have had a longer time to work on the bugs and
major problems than you have, this is not quite true.  For the sims
listed above they are all Version 1's and did not have the problems
experienced by many users of CPR.  Now don't get me wrong, I am not
bashing.  I understand that you are still "cutting your teeth" in the
sim biz.  But, to excuse some of the problems and omissions in your sim
as Version 1 "bugs" I find a little too dis-ingenious.  I agree that you
are attempting to enter a mature market (but basically competing against
2 mature products).  But I still find it hard to swallow the need to
rush a product to the market that was not fully developed.  Maybe I
could understand a little bit more if we could get an honest answer as
to why many of the concerns addressed by your beta testers were not
acted upon.  I just can't believe the beta testers didn't mention some
of these problems being addressed (or not) by the upcoming patch:

1)  Tire Tempature readings

2)  Yellow Flags

3)  AI problems

4)  Steering controlling problems

5)  Frame rate

Just to list a few...

Maybe, just maybe, if you could be honest and up front as to why these
issues weren't addressed for the initial release (or why they won't be
considered for future patches), some of us can come to an understanding
and hopefully accept them for what they are.  Maybe my problem is I just
don't appreciate being told "hyped" that we are going to receive the
most complete and "thrilling" sim yet produced, only to see a not quite
finished product foisted on the buying public just before Christmas.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

So it *was* worth keeping the "retrieve immediately" filter for you MS
guys. Glad to have you here, John!

I think most of the serious criticism stems not from the fact that CPR
is version 1.0, but from the impression that it was released as V 0.9b
in the Americas to meet the Xmas buying frenzy. I tend to believe that
you, as a programmer, weren't happy about this - and I guess that you,
as an employee, aren't allowed to admit this unhappiness publicly.
OTOH, no matter what route you take as a developer, some people will
always be angry at you. I remember vividly the pre-GP2 time when this
group was full of postings asking "Why isn't it released yet?" Because
it wasn't ready yet, I guess.
[another snip]

If I may offer some "survival hints" (most of which you're probably
aware of anyhow):
- Don't try to be comprehensive in your RAS coverage. That way lies
madness.
- Don't bother giving tech support for well known questions (like what
key moves out clipping distance in CPR) The RAS hivemind has absorbed
the answers you or your colleagues gave earlier, and someone will post
the correct answer to easy questions.
- If a posting annoys you big time, sit back and ask yourself calmly:
"Does this person have a valid point after all?" If the answer is
"yes", try to ignore the annoyance and address the fact (if you deem
it necessary.) If it answer is "no" - killfile them for a month! Makes
life much more pleasant. :)

Somebody came up with an interesting thought concerning this:
Mark Blundell knows better than any of us what one can do - and what
one can't do - in a *real* CART car at Laguna Seca. If he drives your
sim, he will most likely drive it the same way he would drive a real
car. If the car behaves like the real thing, he will consider the sim
very realistic. OTOH, guys like Achim (the notorious hot-lapper)
probably don't have too much experience with real CART racecars. They
know, however, an awful lot about driving *simulated* racecars. They
will try things Mark Blundell wouldn't even dream of (or maybe he
would, in his worst nightmares ;) - and get away with it. It seems as
if CPR behaves very realisticly (is that a word?) as long as you drive
it realisticly. However, it allows being driven "unrealisticly" - how
else do you explain the very low laptimes some people achieve? Yes, an
honest endor***t by a real CART driver is a good thing, but I'd also
like to see endor***ts by "real" sim drivers.

This is a sound point of view. As long as you don't confuse harsh but
justified criticism with bashing.

Once again, glad to have you here!

--
Wolfgang Preiss       \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.
wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address.
Uni des Saarlands       \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:44:49 -0800, "John Browne"

 If, after reading this, you want to continue to bash Microsoft or
CPR,

John,

    Welcome. It's nice to know that MS voice is still here.

    Any idea when we can expect the patch?

     I haven't seen any mention of the issue of no yellows flags being
included in the patch. Is it being addressed at this time?

     And will an updated version be available at the retail level
without having to download and install the patch?

Joel Willstein