rec.autos.simulators

New Wheel! Wow!!

Larr

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Larr » Mon, 12 May 2003 14:49:19

I know this, of course :)

The problem is, with the realistic suspension modeling since Nascar Racing 4
(and the resultant pull to the left) turning off the FF in a FF wheel
results in a strong phony centering spring that, especially on
SuperSpeedways, is unmanageable.

Most controller profile software allows you to set the strength of the
centering spring, but Nascar Racing 2003 (stupidly) bypasses any profiler
settings and sets the centering spring on full-tilt.

In other words, it's not an option.

Until (If - I doubt it) Papyrus fixes this in a patch I just set the FF down
to about 20%.

Larry


> uhm, Larry?  You can, in either the NR2K3 options or in your game
controller
> settings for windows.   As far as that goes, while shopping I saw a lot of
> analog wheels for around $20
> \

> --
> McWhom
> -----------------------------------------------------------------



> : Funny, I wish I could turn the FF off...
> :
> : Larry
> :


> : > I have never raced without a FF wheel (MS FF), and quite frankly I
> : > don't know if I could.  N2003 really does a good job of translating
> : > what the car is doing through the wheel.  I can "feel" the car get
> : > loose or tight, roll over, etc.  Again, couldn't drive w/o it.
> : >
> : > Brian Oster
> : >
> : > On Thu, 8 May 2003 16:06:56 -0400, "mcwhom"

> : >
> : > >
> : > >Hey all,
> : > >     I just bought a Saitek R440 Force Feedback Wheel.  I am now
trying
> : to
> : > >relearn how to drive NR2K3 :-)
> : > >     This is really nice, much more realistic feel to it *grin*!  I
am
> : > >trying to find a good position to sit and drive.  Long legs and a
small
> : > >computer cart are not real good for trying to drive.  I just tried
> : > >attatching it to my kids plastic snow board and laid that accross my
> : legs.
> : > >Worked pretty good for stretching my legs and I like to have my face
> back
> : > >from the screen, it seems to give me better depth perception if I can
> be
> : > >about as far back as I am from my real windshield.  Does anyone else
> find
> : > >that to be true?
> : > >     After just a short tryout it has totally changed the way I have
to
> : > >"read" the track.  Went to Michigan, a nice big oval and started
> turning
> : > >some pretty decent laps.  I like the feel I get when the back tires
> start
> : to
> : > >let loose a little, of course that leads me right into oversteer :-),
> : have
> : > >to forget the reaction time of the linear wheel, not to mention the
> : steering
> : > >was about as loose as my '79 Bronco  hehe.
> : > >      Watchout RASCAR, I got three weeks to bone up on this thing.
> : > >*grinning like a damn fool*      ;-)~
> : >
> :
> :

not at hom

New Wheel! Wow!!

by not at hom » Wed, 14 May 2003 12:09:22

Larry,

I turned off the centering spring in the control applet...  Mines Microsoft
though, I cant believe your wheel software doesn't have that option....  and
I get that "full-on phantom centering spring" about 1 out of 6 times I join
a race online,... I usually hit the windows key (lets me go back to
desktop), and reset it in the control panel thing (mines in the systray easy
to get up)  this trick usually works until I leave the server too.  Although
for some reason I had one league event where the dang thing turned on each
and every session...  what hellion problem that is...

Got similar problem on my folk's machine, every time I launch nascar 2003 it
sets the friggin AC97 software to "Quarry" environment for the dam speaker
output...  I cannot figure out what the hell is causing that nor how to make
it stop.


mcwho

New Wheel! Wow!!

by mcwho » Wed, 14 May 2003 17:12:39

friggin AC97 software to "Quarry" environment for the dam speaker

Huh?  Don't understand this but it has to be something to do with the
speaker choice/sound options in the game sending a signal to the sound
control for windows.  Have you turned on/off the 3d sound options?

--
McWhom
-----------------------------------------------------------------



: Larry,
:

Larr

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Larr » Tue, 20 May 2003 03:13:41

Same wheel here.

I run OpenGL, so exiting out to Windows ain't a good idea :)

Larry



> Larry,

> I turned off the centering spring in the control applet...  Mines
Microsoft
> though, I cant believe your wheel software doesn't have that option....
and
> I get that "full-on phantom centering spring" about 1 out of 6 times I
join
> a race online,... I usually hit the windows key (lets me go back to
> desktop), and reset it in the control panel thing (mines in the systray
easy
> to get up)  this trick usually works until I leave the server too.
Although
> for some reason I had one league event where the dang thing turned on each
> and every session...  what hellion problem that is...

> Got similar problem on my folk's machine, every time I launch nascar 2003
it
> sets the friggin AC97 software to "Quarry" environment for the dam speaker
> output...  I cannot figure out what the hell is causing that nor how to
make
> it stop.



> > I know this, of course :)

> > The problem is, with the realistic suspension modeling since Nascar
Racing
> 4
> > (and the resultant pull to the left) turning off the FF in a FF wheel
> > results in a strong phony centering spring that, especially on
> > SuperSpeedways, is unmanageable.

Mitch_

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Mitch_ » Thu, 22 May 2003 17:26:46

Ive got the same problem Mike.  GTR the FF rocks.  In N2003 it pretty much
stinks.  If I get to the point of no oscillations there is literally no
feedback with the wheel.  Ive got a txt file with Sphanky's settings that
seem to work as best Ive seen.  Let me know if ya want it.

Mitch


Bamada

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Bamada » Fri, 23 May 2003 09:55:57

Hey Mitch...I'd like to tale a look at that file.
Dan
Mitch_

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Mitch_ » Fri, 23 May 2003 10:10:21

Sure Dan.  Here ya go.

For the MOMO people, do this.

Start/Settings/Control Panel/Game Controllers.

Then..

Double Left Click on the MOMO, then click the Settings button (bottom
right).

Then set these options...

Combined - unticked (ie: no checkmark) [this allows your brake and gas
pedals to be on a separate axis, which is important to have]

Enable Force Feedback - ticked (ie: checkmark it) [this allows force
feedback in games duh]

Overall Effects Strength - 97% [the reason for 97% and NOT 100% is a long
and complicated explanation, but in short it helps oscillations from
happening]

Spring Effects Strength - 0% [no Papyrus sims use this setting and oddly
enough, if you set it to anything other than 0% you will get undesirable
effects]

Damper Effects Strength - 0% [very VERY important to set this to 0%, this is
probably THE most important setting, as it will greatly increase notchiness
and wheel twitches, even though the Papyrus sims do not exactly enable it]

Enable Centering Spring - ticked [you are going to find this strange,
because in the next setting I tell you to set it to 0%, which is odd because
why not just untick it? well, there's a reason and here it is... if you
don't tick this option and also don't have Damping set -which if your going
with these settings you won't- then a strange phenomenon happens, you will
find that if you turn your wheel rather sharply, the resistance of the wheel
just "gives out" which is not something you want to happen. I will also
admit that having this unchecked does appear to give slightly better
forces -SLIGHTLY- but the repercussions just aren't worth it for the payoff.
so in the end check this option]

Centering Spring Strength - 0% [this is IMPORTANT! i know it's weird, but
you must set it to 0% -  read above option for better explanation]

Then in your Logitech Wingman Profiler, create a Nascar 2003 profile and
then set these settings as follows...

Steering Wheel Sensitivity to 33% [the reason you want to go down from the
default 50% to 33% is because at 50% the wheel is too sensitive to tiny
wheel adjustments... which is not realistic. drive your car and notice how
far you have to turn your wheel... the MOMO have a large radius to turn,
it's a shame most people only move it 5 degrees to either side. this setting
should allow more precise driving and overall smoothness as well - and you
can go down even lower if you wish, to say, 25% if you want to have even
more movement, but i suggest 33% for starters at least, get used to that and
go more later if you like the effect]

Steering Wheel Dead Zone - 2% [another long explanation would be needed and
I don't feel like telling, but in short this also helps oscillations and
twitchiness]

Accelerator Sensitivity - 55% [strangely, this option is the exact opposite
of the Steering, INCREASING this option from the default 50% to 55% makes
the gas less sensitive to the immediate input, in other words, you have to
push down farther before the car gets more power. the default 50% is a
little touchy - when you barely touch the pedal the car can spin out. 55%
helps this from happening and overall gives a more natural and fine tune
approach]

Accelerator Dead Zone - 2% [much the same reasoning as above, this helps
from keeping your car getting to much gas too fast]

Brake Sensitivity - 55% [exact same reasons as accelerator, increasing this
to 55% helps your brakes from locking up to fast. one word of note though is
that I have modified my brake pedal to include the squash ball instead of
the spring, so that may make a difference in your setup. just note that
increasing this gives less immediate braking and can help if your tires are
locking up too easily under braking]

Brake Dead Zone - 2% [same reasons as all the others dead zones]

Now, in Nascar 2003, enable the Force Feedback option under the Controls tab
and you should run this setting in between 35-65 (50 being most common
setting) depending on the track and more importantly, on your setup for that
track. I know this is a pain to have to do at each individual track, but
depending on your setup you will need to adjust the strength of the forces
in game between each track change.

Just start out from 50 and work from there. the key to adjusting strength is
this... if the wheel has a "notchy" feel, lower the setting till it JUST
goes away, if it doesn't have a notchy feel, then raise it till you feel the
notchyness and then lower it till it just goes away again. In essence giving
you the most forces while remaining smooth.

Leave Damping completely off in game... but *IF* and only if you are
oscillating exiting a corner on the straight, then you can slightly and
slowly increase it in game till you stop oscillating, but I doubt many of
you will have oscillation problems because the settings we set up earlier
should rid you of any. This is the only good thing Damping is good for, so
try not to use it unless you have to because it hurts your performance
elsewhere. and again, NEVER EVER EVER use the Damping setting in windows,
the one found in the control panel... and only use the in-game damping if
you absolutely must (as this can mask the real forces and it also increases
notchiness by a factor of 3 fold).

Leave latency off in game (0%). It only provides fake and incorrect forces
at usually the wrong time anyways and can definitely get in the way of
things and effect the overall impressions of the wheel with the rest of
these settings described here. if you honestly feel like forces are
literally coming too late (which I find very hard to believe) and you feel
like you absolutely have to add to this setting, go ahead and increase it...
with 25 being your absolute max (15 the preferred max) and 0% being the
optimal.


Mitch_

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Mitch_ » Fri, 23 May 2003 10:25:44

One other note.  I add about 15% spring centering (despite his advice.  I
just like some forces) and bring down the deadzone from 2% to 1%.

If anyone has any other suggestions feel free.

Mitch'


> Sure Dan.  Here ya go.

> For the MOMO people, do this.

> Start/Settings/Control Panel/Game Controllers.

> Then..

> Double Left Click on the MOMO, then click the Settings button (bottom
> right).

> Then set these options...

> Combined - unticked (ie: no checkmark) [this allows your brake and gas
> pedals to be on a separate axis, which is important to have]

> Enable Force Feedback - ticked (ie: checkmark it) [this allows force
> feedback in games duh]

> Overall Effects Strength - 97% [the reason for 97% and NOT 100% is a long
> and complicated explanation, but in short it helps oscillations from
> happening]

> Spring Effects Strength - 0% [no Papyrus sims use this setting and oddly
> enough, if you set it to anything other than 0% you will get undesirable
> effects]

> Damper Effects Strength - 0% [very VERY important to set this to 0%, this
is
> probably THE most important setting, as it will greatly increase
notchiness
> and wheel twitches, even though the Papyrus sims do not exactly enable it]

> Enable Centering Spring - ticked [you are going to find this strange,
> because in the next setting I tell you to set it to 0%, which is odd
because
> why not just untick it? well, there's a reason and here it is... if you
> don't tick this option and also don't have Damping set -which if your
going
> with these settings you won't- then a strange phenomenon happens, you will
> find that if you turn your wheel rather sharply, the resistance of the
wheel
> just "gives out" which is not something you want to happen. I will also
> admit that having this unchecked does appear to give slightly better
> forces -SLIGHTLY- but the repercussions just aren't worth it for the
payoff.
> so in the end check this option]

> Centering Spring Strength - 0% [this is IMPORTANT! i know it's weird, but
> you must set it to 0% -  read above option for better explanation]

> Then in your Logitech Wingman Profiler, create a Nascar 2003 profile and
> then set these settings as follows...

> Steering Wheel Sensitivity to 33% [the reason you want to go down from the
> default 50% to 33% is because at 50% the wheel is too sensitive to tiny
> wheel adjustments... which is not realistic. drive your car and notice how
> far you have to turn your wheel... the MOMO have a large radius to turn,
> it's a shame most people only move it 5 degrees to either side. this
setting
> should allow more precise driving and overall smoothness as well - and you
> can go down even lower if you wish, to say, 25% if you want to have even
> more movement, but i suggest 33% for starters at least, get used to that
and
> go more later if you like the effect]

> Steering Wheel Dead Zone - 2% [another long explanation would be needed
and
> I don't feel like telling, but in short this also helps oscillations and
> twitchiness]

> Accelerator Sensitivity - 55% [strangely, this option is the exact
opposite
> of the Steering, INCREASING this option from the default 50% to 55% makes
> the gas less sensitive to the immediate input, in other words, you have to
> push down farther before the car gets more power. the default 50% is a
> little touchy - when you barely touch the pedal the car can spin out. 55%
> helps this from happening and overall gives a more natural and fine tune
> approach]

> Accelerator Dead Zone - 2% [much the same reasoning as above, this helps
> from keeping your car getting to much gas too fast]

> Brake Sensitivity - 55% [exact same reasons as accelerator, increasing
this
> to 55% helps your brakes from locking up to fast. one word of note though
is
> that I have modified my brake pedal to include the squash ball instead of
> the spring, so that may make a difference in your setup. just note that
> increasing this gives less immediate braking and can help if your tires
are
> locking up too easily under braking]

> Brake Dead Zone - 2% [same reasons as all the others dead zones]

> Now, in Nascar 2003, enable the Force Feedback option under the Controls
tab
> and you should run this setting in between 35-65 (50 being most common
> setting) depending on the track and more importantly, on your setup for
that
> track. I know this is a pain to have to do at each individual track, but
> depending on your setup you will need to adjust the strength of the forces
> in game between each track change.

> Just start out from 50 and work from there. the key to adjusting strength
is
> this... if the wheel has a "notchy" feel, lower the setting till it JUST
> goes away, if it doesn't have a notchy feel, then raise it till you feel
the
> notchyness and then lower it till it just goes away again. In essence
giving
> you the most forces while remaining smooth.

> Leave Damping completely off in game... but *IF* and only if you are
> oscillating exiting a corner on the straight, then you can slightly and
> slowly increase it in game till you stop oscillating, but I doubt many of
> you will have oscillation problems because the settings we set up earlier
> should rid you of any. This is the only good thing Damping is good for, so
> try not to use it unless you have to because it hurts your performance
> elsewhere. and again, NEVER EVER EVER use the Damping setting in windows,
> the one found in the control panel... and only use the in-game damping if
> you absolutely must (as this can mask the real forces and it also
increases
> notchiness by a factor of 3 fold).

> Leave latency off in game (0%). It only provides fake and incorrect forces
> at usually the wrong time anyways and can definitely get in the way of
> things and effect the overall impressions of the wheel with the rest of
> these settings described here. if you honestly feel like forces are
> literally coming too late (which I find very hard to believe) and you feel
> like you absolutely have to add to this setting, go ahead and increase
it...
> with 25 being your absolute max (15 the preferred max) and 0% being the
> optimal.



> > Hey Mitch...I'd like to tale a look at that file.
> > Dan

Bamada

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Bamada » Sat, 24 May 2003 11:14:38

Thanks Mitch,
Won't be able to give it a try for a while...my hard drive is biting the dust.
On boot I get the message "BACK UP YOUR HD NOW! A FAILURE MAY BE IMMINENT" Oh
well....ya'll have fun at the track.
Dan
J

New Wheel! Wow!!

by J » Sat, 24 May 2003 18:37:55

That's why it took you so long to break the 9 min barrier at the nurbring <grin>

My advise: Try FF, but don't get frustrated too much.
For a non-FF racer a FF-wheel is most irritating at first.
That changes after few thousand laps...

Cya
JensSchumi


---------------------------------------------
LWFF Ball Bearing conversion at:
http://jensschumi.bravepages.com/

GPLRank: -14.82
Monsters of GPL: sub 95

Eldre

New Wheel! Wow!!

by Eldre » Sun, 25 May 2003 11:45:11


writes:

>That's why it took you so long to break the 9 min barrier at the nurbring
><grin>

>My advise: Try FF, but don't get frustrated too much.
>For a non-FF racer a FF-wheel is most irritating at first.
>That changes after few thousand laps...

>Cya
>JensSchumi


>>>Actually, I abhor force feedback and find that it just confuses me
>>>most of the time when the sim does a pretty good job of relaying
>>>information via visual/audio cues.

>>?!
>>I don't have FF.  I've lost track of how many times the car has gotten away
>>from me, and I have NO idea why...
>>I wish I could borrow a FF wheel to see if it made a difference.

No, it took me so long to break the 9:00 barrier at the Ring because I suck as
a driver... :-)  As far as the feel of FF, that sounds like a no-win situation.
 I'm not going to just BUY one because I'm not sure it will help.  But
borrowing one won't help because I wouldn't be able to use it long enough to
get USED to it...

Eldred

--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
GPLRank:-1.950
MonsterRank: +305.145
N2002 Rank:+17.59

Never argue with an idiot.  He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
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