rec.autos.simulators

by **Leo Gre** » Sat, 12 May 2001 08:55:08

Thought these comments by patrick head of the williams F1 team might interest
you all:

Isn't the tire modelling considered to be a weeknesses of GPL too?

by **Jan Verschuere** » Sat, 12 May 2001 09:02:07

Uh-huh... and remember Patrick isn't necessarily talking real time
simulation.

Jan.
=----
"Pay attention when I'm talking to you boy!" -Foghorn Leghorn.

by **David G Fishe** » Sat, 12 May 2001 09:48:50

No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what Patrick
Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart or
anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers.

David G Fisher

by **Dave Henri** » Sat, 12 May 2001 10:38:25

No David is right. Patrick Head may be a real F1 Whiz... but obviously
the complexties of producing a modern Racing car have left him little time
to examine the scope and spectrum of what is available to day.
I am pretty confident in saying the simulations that the teams use are NOT
driving simulations per se...but rather mockups of how the car will perform
at a certain track with a certain setup. If they take the driver out of the
equation, they can program the simulation to test various setups that will
give them a good baseline for starting real testing at the track.
Now David's reply was tongue in cheek but it has a grain of truth whether
he knows it or not..Head says getting tires modeled correctly is difficult
because of the advances being made almost daily...think back to
1967..back...back....now...what technological changes were made to the
racing tires during the season? Anyone? ....since, as I'm guessing, the
tires were pretty
stagnant development wise, the GPL programmers could make many of the same
guesses that the Williams team have made in their programming.
dave henrie

> Get back under your rock and wait for your patch.

> Ben

> >No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what Patrick
> >Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart
or
> >anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers.

> >David G Fisher

by **Leo Gre** » Sat, 12 May 2001 12:35:14

I agree with what you're saying, both about the nature of the simulations f1
teams use and the inapplicability of their tire modeling problems in gpl. I
guess I was using some lateral thinking to equate his statements to gpl.
AFAIK, the problems with the tire modeling in gpl is that it does not account
for the deformation of the tire under lateral and longitudinal loading. So
what I found interesting about his comments were the following statements:

"Fundamentally, our car is dependent on the tyre completely for its grip on
the track. So, having a model that is limited and imperfect means that some of
the real car simulation is actually very difficult to do."

I guess this sortakinda supports those who claim that the incomplete tire
modeling made gpl unrealistic cuz it is such an important component of the
simulation.

Leo

> No David is right. Patrick Head may be a real F1 Whiz... but obviously
>the complexties of producing a modern Racing car have left him little time
>to examine the scope and spectrum of what is available to day.
> I am pretty confident in saying the simulations that the teams use are NOT
>driving simulations per se...but rather mockups of how the car will perform
>at a certain track with a certain setup. If they take the driver out of the
>equation, they can program the simulation to test various setups that will
>give them a good baseline for starting real testing at the track.
> Now David's reply was tongue in cheek but it has a grain of truth whether
>he knows it or not..Head says getting tires modeled correctly is difficult
>because of the advances being made almost daily...think back to
>1967..back...back....now...what technological changes were made to the
>racing tires during the season? Anyone? ....since, as I'm guessing, the
>tires were pretty
>stagnant development wise, the GPL programmers could make many of the same
>guesses that the Williams team have made in their programming.

by **Jan Loebzie** » Sat, 12 May 2001 18:12:08

On Fri, 11 May 2001 02:02:07 +0200, "Jan Verschueren"

>Uh-huh... and remember Patrick isn't necessarily talking real time
>simulation.

And even if he does, it's probably one that'd cost you a few million
bucks, not $50 for a game and $2000 for a puter ... :-)

Hint to Leo Greco: that's the problems with quotes without sources,
we can't get the full picture!

Jan

by **Kasper Kowalsk** » Sun, 13 May 2001 01:11:37

the tyre models used in games are simplistic in the extreme compared to a
real tyre... i know nothing about how the physics in sims is programmed so
correct me if i'm wrong. based on the way most sims feel, chances are the
programmers only model fairly basic static and kinetic friction effects with
the rest contributed by inertia. to really model a tyre accurately, you
need to factor in changes in contact patch pressure movement as
suspension/cornering/braking/accelerating loads change... you need to factor
in tyre deformation (the sidewall is in effect a suspension component,
defelecting more than the suspension itself at times)... more specifically,
a more realistic frictional model needs to be created... tyre grip isn't a
two-step process of grip or slip... the coefficient of friction is a dynamic
thing changing with tyre temperature, load, wear.... if you think the
processor occupancy of gp3 drawing a full grid is high, imagine a true
simulation of tyre performance for each car... you'd need serious processing
power

KK

by **Gerry Aitke** » Sun, 13 May 2001 01:37:19

> No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what Patrick
> Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart or
> anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers.

David, you stick to 2nd rate 'sims', they suit you. Ha.

Gerry

"I'm completely alone in my views." -- David G Fisher, 2nd rate 'sim'
racing 'legend'.

by **Tony Whitle** » Sun, 13 May 2001 02:15:15

> > No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what
Patrick
> > Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart
or
> > anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers.

> David, you stick to 2nd rate 'sims', they suit you. Ha.

> Gerry

> "I'm completely alone in my views." -- David G Fisher, 2nd rate 'sim'
> racing 'legend'.

I don't suppose there's any chance that DGF was being ironic? No, of course
not...

Tony Whitley
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm
not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein

by **Gerry Aitke** » Sun, 13 May 2001 02:48:13

> > > No. If it's GPL, it must be absolutely perfect. I don't care what
> Patrick
> > > Head says. He knows nothing about simulators. Either does Jackie Stewart
> or
> > > anyone else outside of r.a.s. GPL'ers.

> > David, you stick to 2nd rate 'sims', they suit you. Ha.

> > Gerry

> > "I'm completely alone in my views." -- David G Fisher, 2nd rate 'sim'
> > racing 'legend'.

> I don't suppose there's any chance that DGF was being ironic?

Irony:-

1: Expression of meaning by language of opposite or different tendency

or...

2: Use of a language with one meaning for privileged few and another for
those addressed or concerned.

or...

3: Ill-timed or perverse arrival of event or circumstance that would in
itself be desirable.

Of course DFG is one of GPL's biggest fans.

Gerry

"All I can think to say to my critics is go f**k yourselves." -- David G
Fisher

by **mjessick-Motorsim** » Sun, 13 May 2001 03:24:53

The real question for me is do the tire models that can be
used in games exceed in sophistication the available data
used to generate them.

I think that the answer to that question can now
be yes, if desired.

> the tyre models used in games are simplistic in the extreme compared to a
> real tyre... i know nothing about how the physics in sims is programmed so
> correct me if i'm wrong. based on the way most sims feel, chances are the
> programmers only model fairly basic static and kinetic friction effects with
> the rest contributed by inertia. to really model a tyre accurately, you
> need to factor in changes in contact patch pressure movement as
> suspension/cornering/braking/accelerating loads change... you need to factor
> in tyre deformation (the sidewall is in effect a suspension component,
> defelecting more than the suspension itself at times)... more specifically,
> a more realistic frictional model needs to be created... tyre grip isn't a
> two-step process of grip or slip... the coefficient of friction is a dynamic
> thing changing with tyre temperature, load, wear.... if you think the
> processor occupancy of gp3 drawing a full grid is high, imagine a true
> simulation of tyre performance for each car... you'd need serious processing
> power

> KK

--
Matthew V. Jessick Motorsims

Vehicle Dynamics Engineer (972)910-8866 Ext.125, Fax: (972)910-8216

by **ymenar** » Sun, 13 May 2001 03:50:36

> I don't suppose there's any chance that DGF was being ironic?

No.

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- May the Downforce be with you...
-- http://www.ymenard.com/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimato Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...

by **Doug Millike** » Sun, 13 May 2001 04:25:44

> The real question for me is do the tire models that can be
> used in games exceed in sophistication the available data
> used to generate them.

> I think that the answer to that question can now
> be yes, if desired.

Hi Matt,

You've managed to confuse me...could you re-state that, or give
an example?

-- Doug

Milliken Research Associates Inc.

by **Leo Gre** » Sun, 13 May 2001 08:01:27

My bad. I'd post a link but I think it's too long to work with my newsreader
app. The article is at www.bmw.williamsf1.com. It's called:
"Patrick Head on Formula One technology".

>On Fri, 11 May 2001 02:02:07 +0200, "Jan Verschueren"

>>Uh-huh... and remember Patrick isn't necessarily talking real time
>>simulation.

>And even if he does, it's probably one that'd cost you a few million
>bucks, not $50 for a game and $2000 for a puter ... :-)

>Hint to Leo Greco: that's the problems with quotes without sources,
>we can't get the full picture!

>Jan

by **Jan Loebzie** » Sun, 13 May 2001 10:50:28

Thanks!

rec.autos.simulators

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing

Patrick Head of Williams F1 on Sim Racing