rec.autos.simulators

I know the reasons why Beta didn't become the standard.  The fact still
remains it was the superior format, however small the advantage was.
That's all my argument was: the fact that the sometimes an inferior product
can become the industry standard.  The reasons for this decision really
don't matter.

Not only does OS/2 Warp Multitask better than Win95 it is also a true
32-bit operating system.  Again, it was not chosen as the OS of the masses
for other reasons despite it being the superior OS.  Like I said, and you
pointed out, I use Win95 because you almost have to.

me of attempting "to lead, patrol, and otherwise dictate this forum".  I
have never said the Voodoo was an inferior card.  No one will debate the
fact that it is quite superior.  My only problem with it is its potential
marketshare.  I have the same concerns with it as did John Carmack of iD.
They did their Rendition port of Quake for economic reasons only, and
admitted a Voodoo version would have been better.  Still, I have said for
months now that I wanted a Voodoo and I have not changed my mind.  I was
tempted to replace my Mach64 with a Rendition card just to play Nascar2 on,
but after seeing reports of it's Windows performance I'm a little hesitant.

--

Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://www.racesimcentral.net/~ebusch/

What have you gotten me on.  Every example I gave you openly admitted that
the superior product (Beta, OS/2, and now any card other than a Sound
Blaster) lost out to an inferior product or format.  The reasons why did
not concern me, just the fact that it happens.

I'm not trying to argue with you.  I totally agree the Voodoo is the best
card out there.  I have been planning to buy one for months now.

Yes, but the problem is that the card that won out was a poorly made noisy
card.  I'm not talking 'state of the art' here, but just plain old sound
quality.  The Sound Blaster pales in comparison to other cards out there.
In this case the standard made life much easier for the game playing
consumer, but it cost them quality sound.

Exactly.  With the advent of Direct3D we no longer have to worry about
which card will supported by what developers.  I don't understand why
Papyrus is not making Nascar2 a Win95 Direct3D game to save us from all of
this.  That way owners of any 3D card (that had Direct3D drivers of course)
could take advantage of some of the 3D acceleration features.

Again I'm not disagreeing with you about the Voodoo, I plan on getting one
myself.  The original argument was about why Papyrus choose to support the
Rendition card.  With its lower price coupled with the fact that Sierra is
producing its own card, it really was a no-brainer.  Papyrus knows the
Voodoo is a better card (everyone does) but they made an economic decision
to support Rendition just like John Carmack of iD.

I don't want to single you out. It just seems to me that lately r.a.s. has
become more of an arena for sniping, personal attacks and adolescents
trolling for trouble than a place for intelligent discussion of the subject
matter at hand. There will always be the rogue element bent on destruction,
but certainly the rest of us can observe certain rules of etiquette and try
to maintain a civil tone.

I'm likely to get flamed for this, but I truly believe you can make your
point without resorting to insults.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

Yes, the same people who are buying P5-166's and 4MB high performance video
cards will probably buy the best the 3D market has to offer. But the fact
of the matter is, once 3D acceleration takes off, the majority of boards
shipped will be under $200. That is the economics of the mass market. And
until Microsoft can provide a solution to the real-time issues plaguing
simulations running under Win'95, DOS-based games will continue to be the
exception instead of the rule.

Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html

By the way I just installed a new Dynamite 128/video ( and removed a
Diamond 3200, it's for sale ).
Does anybody know if you can put a 3D card alongside the Dynamite ?

Thanks  
Guy Brosseau

On the Vodoo...

REPLY:

Rumor has it id wanted $1,000,000 for the Quake packin version for the Vodoo.
Orchid tried to fanagle the deal but ultimately balked at it. In my opion it's a
good move for Orchid because Vodoo will have Quake for free. I'm really
dissapointed with id or any software companies that are giving these manuf.
troubles like this. They get a one time sell and they are giving those programmers
what they wanted, thanks should be in hand to them by the software companies.

People have seen the Vodoo version though not 100% complete. Yes it was
faster and more detailed yet. It's out there, if it is realized as the
D3D Win '95 version then so be it.

On Nascar 2, I was hoping for a Vodoo version. I'm going to wait on the
Verite for a while, I still feel were going to see a Vodoo Nascar 2
version. In fact every game I feel being designed for the Verite will
soon afterwards (2 months) have a vodoo version. That's my feeling on
the matter. With that feeling that's why I'm holding off on the Verite.
Another smaller point on the verite is that CL has already made plans
for 2 more different chip boards other than the Verite, Laguna and
Permedia. So in the last year CL will be using 4 different 3d chips
already. To me that states their not really satisfied with the verite,
so why should we.

Orchid is the company that's going to get the biggest bang here, they
have "the" chip, their smaller and they're the only one atm. What's
their stock at right now?

Q.B.M.

QAZ:

ERIC:

REPLY:

Well Eric your making this a strange debate then. I'm buying two, your buying one, lots of
people are buying them but then you don't think it will have enough market share. In your
writings you state your getting the vodoo and holding off on the verite. So why do you think
the other people will do the opposite?

Your buying one because you fell you'll see the difference. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to
know what you like. When people see the vodoo they'll like it.

QAZ:

ERIC:

REPLY:

Some people like the sound of albums better than Cd's. Hearing is a different bird than video,
nowhere near as black and white. "Seeing is believing", you can't see sound. Point is it's
easier to get a sound standard because of it's idiosynchrencies (sp?) that many people don't
care about.

REPLY:

Common ground is being reached here. Yes Papy we want a D3D version only!!

REPLY:

Sierra-Papy, Papy-Sierra. Whatever Sierra then should stay out of
producing boards. If the get to hell bent their ultimatley gonna hurt
themselves with this. Is Sirra actually producing the card or are they
just buying a finished board and bundling it? Very different.

Q.B.M.

Yeah but I'm not talking SVGA. IMO it's hard to tell a decent cheap
SVGA board to a expensive SVGA. So when consumers see this the
obviously will save the cash. But what I'm talking here is you have a
major visual difference at hand. Now what do you do, I feel the public
will spend the extra dollar for a definte better qality product if it's
in the same pricing structure which they are. Were not talking $500 to
$2000.

SPARKS:

REPLY:

Last statement I believe you worded it backwards for your point.

Hey the Vodoo board is gonna drop as well and don't be surprised the
Diamond Monster 3D is $200. So what does that do to everybodys
predictions? Soon enough the price difference between vodoo and verite
will be near nil., does the Verite still outsell the Vodoo at that
point IYO? The Vodoo doesn't have to be sold at $300, it's where they
feel for the
kickoff is a good price, they feel they are delivering the goods with this board. Again
if you or whoever is right about verite selling more, than Orchid will drop the price,
they have that ability.

Q.B.M.

--
Henrikki (Hena) Hakkanen               Tel. +358-(9)0-345 5538

------- The best way to accelerate a Mac is 9.81 m/s2 --------
--------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: Opinions expressed here are mine and does not
            necessarily reflect those of my employer!

Yes.  You would get support for all of the future native Rendition Ports
(ICR2, Nascar2, Quake, etc.) as well as the Voodoo ports (EF2000, Falcon
4.0, Descent2, etc.) plus a decently fast 2D card in the Rendition.
Direct3D will recognize the Voodoo as the primary 3D card, and use it for
all 3D graphics in Win95.  You would indeed get the best of both worlds,
but it will set you back almost $500 US.

This was the plan I was going to take, but I think perhaps I'll just going
to get the Voodoo.  The only reason I really wanted a Rendition card was
for the Quake port (and Nascar2 I guess), and now it's been announced that
the Voodoo will be the reference platform for the Direct3D Win95 version.
Not quite a native port, but it will do for me.  With questionable 2D
Windows performance, I would like to see one in action before I make my
final decision.  

--

Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

article

market share. In your
take a brain surgeon to

People also like fast computers, yet not everyone chooses to buy a P200.
They will always be some middle ground between the performance one wants
and the price they are willing to pay for it.  I think you are giving the
public at large too much credit.  Without access to these newsgroups
(hardware.video specifically) or reviews of the board, they will go by
pictures on the box and price.  From a still shot, I don't think there is
enough difference that someone who is not that informed will notice.  Also,
a lot of people still have slow 2D cards and are looking to upgrade them as
well.  If the Voodoo is purchased that's about $400-$500 depending on the
2D card purchased along with it.  For the Rendition you're looking at under
$200 for an all around graphics solution.

It is being built for Sierra by the Japanese manufacturer Canopus, but that
really doesn't change things.  Sierra still has a vested interest in
success of the Rendition based boards.  "We're not trying to get into the
hardware business," says Sierra product manager Scott Fasser, "we're trying
to establish a standard.  There is no comparison between games written to
Direct3D and games tuned to a specific chip, such as the Vrit."  It's no
surprise he says this, seeing how Microsoft itself pulled the unimpressive
Rendition cards out of its Direct3D display machines at E3 in favor of
Voodoo cards.

--

Emory University Graduate School of Arts & Sciences
Nascar Setups Page: http://userwww.service.emory.edu/~ebusch/

Correct. I'm possibly looking at that scenario myself. But if we had
D3D versions only the Vodoo would be necessary.

Q.B.M.

 You may

David, I only fault him for speaking as a matter of fact concerning
which is the better OS. Your question is false because I don't need any
objective facts to demonstrate how there are different strokes for
different folks.  The thing that makes a good OS will vary from
individual to individual.  Remember, Eric stated which was the better OS
as a fact not opinion.  Opinions are fine, because I don't have to agree
with them. A belief represented as a fact is where I get unglued.  It
was taken personally and I can't help but speak up (in this free country
of our).  

ok, I validate your feeings on this matter overall.  It is just hard to
sit here and not reply to some of these posts which attempt to shove a
muffin down my throat.

The next phase of the market is defined by who can provide the best
software bundles. The final stage, when the ultimate winners are decided,
is defined by who can get the most design wins with the Big 10 computer
manufacturers.

The public might spend the extra dollar, but the public doesn't make the
decisions in the final stage, it's the computer manufacturers like Dell,
Gateway, Packard Bell, etc. And believe me, if the Voodoo solutions costs
one penny more than Verite, it will probably lose, assuming that either of
them survive to that point.

Oops. That's what I get for not proof-reading.

I still predict the winner will be the one who sells the most chips.  <g>

Dave (davids) Sparks
Late Night League
http://www.sequoia-dev.com/Hawaii/latenite.html