rec.autos.simulators

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Statistics provide one irrefutable fact....that 100% of surveys give
100% statistics!

But you are overlooking the fact, in your wholesome enthusiasm for
on-line ***, that to the vast majority of software buyers, it will be
something that they haven't the slightest interest in.

And that *IS* as fact!! :o)

> I still say Bruce that you can talk as many statistics as you like, and I will link the
> results to the consumers knowledge that online sim racing is currently a joke outside of
> NROS. The buzz created by a good online sim racing game could change the results of a
> survey in a flash ie people coming to the party when they hear the news. It's a matter of
> when does the catalyst appear!

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------

by **L. Andre Min** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

> No sim will be even close to reality... <anip>...
> i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes
> from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky.
> So ,what are the risks when you're playing on your pc for hours?

I get eye strain... does that count? ;-)

Later...

Andre

by **Christer Andersso** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

LOL, how did that feel, Byron, being lectured like that :o))).

/Christer, really believes car position and orientation should be enough, but
what do I know :o)))
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

> Okay try this on for size.

> Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver
> details, car choice
> Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear,
> orientation on the track.

> This is then acted on by the client machines to draw the car correctly. In GPL
> you can hear the engine note, see the steering and the physical effects of
> acceleration, braking, changing gear etc on the other cars so this data is
> needed. This is without the occasional packets of information to tell the
> machine to raise the drivers arm (in GPL) or set up a pitstop (GP2). This is,
> as you can imagine a LOT of data. The server has to collect it and send it out
> to the clients as well as process it's own info. This is why dedicated servers
> are popular, it removes (at least) one layer of processing from the server.

> "ping" as you so call it is the time required for a packet of information to
> be sent to a machine and return. If your PC is using all it's bandwidth for
> the job it is engaged in the "ping" increases. Admittedly there is also a
> factor on a) network usage b) "server" load but these are all because of the
> amount of traffic vs. the amount of bandwidth/processing time available.

> BTW for the techies out there I *know* that's not the "kosher" explanation but
> to be honest I don't think people want to read an essay on the cause and
> effect of inter-networking overload.

> >Sounds about right to me Rafael! Position and orientation of course. A 3D model
> > makes
> >it a little more complex by adding a 3rd dimension to both orientation and
> > position, but
> >big deal! Besides, bandwidth is rarely the problem, ping is!

> >> > I can't understand the assertion that a "dedicated server" would cost
> > money.
> >> > People run plenty of servers for Quake, Unreal et al without charging for
> > it
> >> > so why should this be any different.

> >> > The problem with internet play is that the more complex a sim, the more
> > data
> >> > needs transferring between machines and the more complicated the code needs
> > to
> >> > be to get it to work on anything below 56k.

> >> In the case of racing sims,which else data needs to be sent more than the
> > cars
> >> position in the track.I think the image of the other's car is generated on
> > the
> >> receiving computer own .That's a guess,sorry if this was stupid

> >> Rafael

by **Christer Andersso** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

I dont think you believe that the high pulse the F1 drivers has on the grid just
before the start is because of the high risks in F1. I believe you could get the
same high pulse before an indoor kart race. I believe it's in the amount of time
spent preparing. The more time you have put into preparing a race the more you
want that race to go well and there you have true pressure and a high pulse. I
have felt that high pulse before sim races in offline league races. The reason
for this, as I understand it, is because I have practiced a lot for the race and
now I only have one shot at the race and that's spelled pressure :o). I bet a
lot of NROS drivers can tell you some stories about high pulse, pressure and
sweating :o).

/Christer

> The point
> is ,it's a game and and i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes
> from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky.

> Rafael

> > Like I said, you can either approximate it or you can do it right. One
> > involves compromises, the other bandwidth issues. There is no
> > shortcut, you just weigh it up and set the balance as you see ift.

> > Cheers!
> > John

--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o) )

by **Byron Forbe** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

> Statistics provide one irrefutable fact....that 100% of surveys give
> 100% statistics!

> But you are overlooking the fact, in your wholesome enthusiasm for
> on-line ***, that to the vast majority of software buyers, it will be
> something that they haven't the slightest interest in.

> And that *IS* as fact!! :o)

For now, maybe! :)

by **Byron Forbe** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

> LOL, how did that feel, Byron, being lectured like that :o))).

> /Christer, really believes car position and orientation should be enough, but
> what do I know :o)))
> --

Great, since it was educational :) As I just said elsewhere though, I dunno how we got
into this because it is a bandwidth thing rather than the critical ping aspect.

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Nothing....just the new circuit.

> > No sim will be even close to reality... <anip>...
> > i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes
> > from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky.

> > So ,what are the risks when you're playing on your pc for hours?

> I get eye strain... does that count? ;-)

> Later...

> Andre

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Sun, 30 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Jesus, Byron.....*EVERYTHING* is just "for now", mate!! :o)

> For now, maybe! :)

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

by **Ian Parke** » Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:00:00

>features for setups ,hotlaps,etc ,accerated time in qualifying(will GPL
have it ,or will
>we have to sit and watch the whole thing?),wait the real time it lasts to
change your
>gearing setup ,for example, and option for only 100% races.
> It sound ridiculous, and in fact it is ,and these above will never be
>implemented,Because it's only a game.

>Rafael

Actually that's given me an idea . How about when qualifying if you decide
to change the car setup, during the time in the garage you lose say 5 to 10
minutes for simple changes, or 10 -20 minutes for more drastic changes. Also
if you wreck the car in an accident , depending on whereabouts on the
circuit you crash you lose more time due to the walk / run back to the pits
, and hopefully the spare car is setup for you and not your team mate. If
you were then to go out and wreck the spare maybe you wouldn't qualify for
the race (or further back on the grid) . The single spare car idea may cause
some arguments for online racing, if both driver's in a team wreck their own
race cars:-)

Ian P

by **Ian Parke** » Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:00:00

>features for setups ,hotlaps,etc ,accerated time in qualifying(will GPL
have it ,or will
>we have to sit and watch the whole thing?),wait the real time it lasts to
change your
>gearing setup ,for example, and option for only 100% races.
> It sound ridiculous, and in fact it is ,and these above will never be
>implemented,Because it's only a game.

>Rafael

Actually that's given me an idea . How about when qualifying if you decide
to change the car setup, during the time in the garage you lose say 5 to 10
minutes for simple changes, or 10 -20 minutes for more drastic changes. Also
if you wreck the car in an accident , depending on whereabouts on the
circuit you crash you lose more time due to the walk / run back to the pits
, and hopefully the spare car is setup for you and not your team mate. If
you were then to go out and wreck the spare maybe you wouldn't qualify for
the race (or further back on the grid) . The single spare car idea may cause
some arguments for online racing, if both driver's in a team wreck their own
race cars:-)

Ian P

by **Ian Parke** » Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:00:00

>features for setups ,hotlaps,etc ,accerated time in qualifying(will GPL
have it ,or will
>we have to sit and watch the whole thing?),wait the real time it lasts to
change your
>gearing setup ,for example, and option for only 100% races.
> It sound ridiculous, and in fact it is ,and these above will never be
>implemented,Because it's only a game.

>Rafael

Actually that's given me an idea . How about when qualifying if you decide
to change the car setup, during the time in the garage you lose say 5 to 10
minutes for simple changes, or 10 -20 minutes for more drastic changes. Also
if you wreck the car in an accident , depending on whereabouts on the
circuit you crash you lose more time due to the walk / run back to the pits
, and hopefully the spare car is setup for you and not your team mate. If
you were then to go out and wreck the spare maybe you wouldn't qualify for
the race (or further back on the grid) . The single spare car idea may cause
some arguments for online racing, if both driver's in a team wreck their own
race cars:-)

Ian P

by **Christer Andersso** » Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Wont it always be an approximation?

/Christer
--
http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online
racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone
has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))

> Like I said, you can either approximate it or you can do it right. One
> involves compromises, the other bandwidth issues. There is no
> shortcut, you just weigh it up and set the balance as you see ift.

> Cheers!
> John

by **John Walla** » Mon, 31 Aug 1998 04:00:00

On Sun, 30 Aug 1998 17:21:23 GMT, Christer Andersson

>Wont it always be an approximation?

To all intents and purposes uyes, but not necessarily. When playing
Quake online I used to use an office connection to the UK's
SuperJANET, which gave ping times of 12ms - that is as close to real
time as makes no difference and therefore not an approximation.

As ping time increases you can either plot only when a packet
succesfully arrives, or you can extrapolate in one way or another
until you get the information and then update the position instantly
or via some smoothing transition. Whichever way you choose will be an
approximation, but how much of an approximation depends upon
connection quality and how you program the code to handle such
instances.

Which way programmers should be headed depends upon their thoughts on
what is "real" racing or not, and whether the internet can in future
provide suitable latency for racing (or whether software companies
need to be coding to take account of long term deficiencies). I think
the latency will improve and I also prefer knowing where my opponent
actually is, so I err toward less approximation.

Cheers!
John

by **meij** » Wed, 02 Sep 1998 04:00:00

My point was not "all or nothing" but what is acceptable and what is
prefereable. I know there has to be a balance between the two but to be
honest, why can't a programmer manage to send the required info?

Okay, you have to set a minimum connection speed but if that is 33.6k or
56k then fine. Most people are happy to splash out on a 3d card or whatever
but are a little less keen to spend a little extra on a faster modem.

The point I'm making is that whatever complexity the sim takes, any
multiplayer form of the sim HAS to support the same otherwise you have 2
games. This is great for Quake and QuakeWorld as people can pick the option
best suited to them (either NetQuake or QW) when playing online but I can't
see any racing sim company moving to provide 2 choices in online play
technology if only because of the complexity and expense. id develop QW for
free and have just released the last version after working on it for God knows
how long (18-24 months?).

M

>You raise some good points, but OTOH I still question their *necessity*. If the
>difference between *all* of this information and just the *necessary* stuff is
> the
>difference between unplayable and playable multiplay then I still think my
> point stands.
>It seems your point is that you want it all or you want nothing! Btw, I doubt
> you would be
>in a 90% majority here.

rec.autos.simulators

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play