rec.autos.simulators

by **meij** » Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car would
just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not talking
about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the
engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc

I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing
simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is
astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate
simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from
their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work would
not be acceptable to 90% of people.

Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see
the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN or
the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it....

M

>> Okay try this on for size.

>> Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver
>> details, car choice
>> Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear,
>> orientation on the track.

> Steering????? Why???????

> Throttle - optional

> Brake positions?????????? Why???????????????

> Gear - optional

> Orientation - of course

> If these are you guesses, I hope your wrong. If not, the programmers are
> clueless by
>the looks of things to me! Way too much unnecessary info here!

by **David G Fishe** » Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:00:00

You and some others sound unnecessarily down on internet play in sims today.
Even if you have zero interest in MTM2 or the new Motocross Madness, try the
demos online. I use a 33.6 modem and the results are excellent. MS improved
the performance just in the time between CPR and MTM2. From what I
understand, GPL is better than CPR online, and if it's as good as MTM2,
there will be great net racing with that as well. I think I speak from some
authority as I've had hundreds of online races with these games with people
from all over the world. Even races with people with a poor ping rating are
often acceptable. If I want to guarantee a smooth race, I just look at the
ratings and only include guys with good pings. Then, it's as smooth as a
race with the computer cars. Every movement of the opponents vehicles is
modeled. Nothing has been left out at all.

This is a fairly simple explanation, but apparently some developers have
made online racing a priority and have learned how to have the game
successfully fill in the gaps between the packets of info that is
transferred over the net during a race. This eliminates a lot of the warping
effect. I raced POD last summer, and it was good for that time but compared
to today, it's a joke. You would see POD cars flying off the road, only to
appear a quarter mile down the track ahead of you a few seconds later.

Byron and myself know that sim manufacturers CAN provide smooth internet
play if they choose to. We also have noticed a kind of coolness by some
developers to do so and that's what's bothersome. There's no excuse for that
attitude. Even aviation sims are providing online play now. How can racing
sims not provide it as well? Auto racing (sports) is all about human
competition.

Dave
DmndDave

>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car
would
>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not
talking
>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the
>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc

>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing
>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is
>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate
>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from
>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work
would
>not be acceptable to 90% of people.

>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see
>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN
or
>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it....

>M

by **Conkli** » Fri, 28 Aug 1998 04:00:00

alot of those effects can be handle client side i would think. like the
suspension movement you talk about, the server could send the speen and
track placement ect. to you and your comp. could figure out the suspension
movent etc.

Joe Conklin
For Central PA Online Gamers:
http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/
For Grand Prix Legends:
http://members.xoom.com/gplegends/

remove spam to reply

>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car
would
>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not
talking
>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the
>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc

>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing
>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is
>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate
>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from
>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work
would
>not be acceptable to 90% of people.

>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see
>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN
or
>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it....

>M

<snip>

by **Bruce Kennewel** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

>There's no excuse for that

attitude.

Ummm.....there is, you know, David.
"Economic viability" is the excuse: if only a minority of consumers are
buying the product for that feature then it is uneconomical to spend
time and resources on the in-house development of that feature. far
wiser to spend those resources elsewhere in the "manufacture" of the
product.

--
Regards,
Bruce.
----------
The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:-
http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

by **meij** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Well not really... the suspension dip on your road car is a function less of
speed more of change in velocity be it braking, accelerating or cornering. The
same applies to race cars.

The client *does* calculate it but based on the parameters I stated rather
than something as simple as a position triplet and velocity.

m

>alot of those effects can be handle client side i would think. like the
>suspension movement you talk about, the server could send the speen and
>track placement ect. to you and your comp. could figure out the suspension
>movent etc.

>Joe Conklin
>For Central PA Online Gamers:
>http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/
>For Grand Prix Legends:
>http://members.xoom.com/gplegends/

>remove spam to reply

>>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car
>would
>>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not
>talking
>>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the
>>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc

>>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing
>>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is
>>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate
>>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from
>>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work
>would
>>not be acceptable to 90% of people.

>>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see
>>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN
>or
>>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it....

>>M

><snip>

by **meij** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

I'm lucky enough to have a LAN connection to the net at work which moves me
into the land of LPB's when I play Quake or Quake 2 and, to be honest, I've
never had much problem with any racing game over the net because of that. At
home where I have a 33.6k connection I never bother with net *** because
it's not worth the time and money (1 to 1.7 pence per minute) to play laggy
games. That said, I LOVE multiplayer *** and think it's the way forward.

I think you'll find that it isn't easy to provide GOOD internet ***
otherwise everyone would do it. MS games are good at it (MXM is stunning), but
Unreal is the worst I have ever seen. Why? It's not easy. Do we want to wait
another 4-6 months for flawless netplay when 90% of the time we'll be playing
against the PC?

Anyway, the point of my post was to make the issue that there is a lot more
data than car position and orientation required to make a sim work right on
network play.

Later

M

>You and some others sound unnecessarily down on internet play in sims today.
>Even if you have zero interest in MTM2 or the new Motocross Madness, try the
>demos online. I use a 33.6 modem and the results are excellent. MS improved
>the performance just in the time between CPR and MTM2. From what I
>understand, GPL is better than CPR online, and if it's as good as MTM2,
>there will be great net racing with that as well. I think I speak from some
>authority as I've had hundreds of online races with these games with people
>from all over the world. Even races with people with a poor ping rating are
>often acceptable. If I want to guarantee a smooth race, I just look at the
>ratings and only include guys with good pings. Then, it's as smooth as a
>race with the computer cars. Every movement of the opponents vehicles is
>modeled. Nothing has been left out at all.

>This is a fairly simple explanation, but apparently some developers have
>made online racing a priority and have learned how to have the game
>successfully fill in the gaps between the packets of info that is
>transferred over the net during a race. This eliminates a lot of the warping
>effect. I raced POD last summer, and it was good for that time but compared
>to today, it's a joke. You would see POD cars flying off the road, only to
>appear a quarter mile down the track ahead of you a few seconds later.

>Byron and myself know that sim manufacturers CAN provide smooth internet
>play if they choose to. We also have noticed a kind of coolness by some
>developers to do so and that's what's bothersome. There's no excuse for that
>attitude. Even aviation sims are providing online play now. How can racing
>sims not provide it as well? Auto racing (sports) is all about human
>competition.

>Dave
>DmndDave

>>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car
>would
>>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not
>talking
>>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the
>>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc

>>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing
>>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is
>>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate
>>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from
>>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work
>would
>>not be acceptable to 90% of people.

>>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see
>>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN
>or
>>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it....

>>M

by **John Walla** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

So the orientation of your opponent's wheels can be seen while
steering.

Not if you want to be able to hear his engine. This is important from
positional aspect, and also for atmosphere.

To show lockups, generate appropriate level of smoke, skidding etc.

Means no gears in the replay.

Not at all, in fact if you are looking at a _serious_ sim then you
need more. There's a difference between what is required for a real
simulation and what is required for a game - that's not intended to be
disparaging, just an observation of fact. How can you know how much
draft you're going to get unless you know my setup and thus can
generate how big a hole I'm making in the air? In a game you
approximate this and it's not a problem, but in a sim it is, at least
of you want to do it correctly.

Cheers!
John

by **John Walla** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 14:25:42 -0400, "David G Fisher"

>This is a fairly simple explanation, but apparently some developers have
>made online racing a priority and have learned how to have the game
>successfully fill in the gaps between the packets of info that is
>transferred over the net during a race. This eliminates a lot of the warping
>effect.

It does, but at a cost. Let's say we're both exiting Parabolica and
you want to draft me all the way up Retifilio and make the pass into
Curva Grande - I will jink side to side to keep you out of the draft
as much as I can, but with warping and a computer filling in the gaps
you don't know where I am - at 200mph that is not good. You pull out
to pass, my position is updated, and we both crash.

It is a very fine art to this, and whereas a Quake pushlatency will be
lost in the melee, a race between two good drivers will likely be
settled by one moment, one moment where you really, really need to
know where everything is. The balance between absorbing latency
problems and providing accurate update is very delicate. IMO it's
often better to know that there may be a problem (and back off
accordingly) than be lulled into a false sense of security and ruin
everyone's race.

MTM2 seems to have it pretty good, the latency control was one of it's
finest aspects IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of aviation sims don't model plane
to plane collisions for the very reasons described above - if heading
adjustments are acted upon immediately in a head to head the planes
will surely crash, and that can't be guaranteed. That would be a
ludicrous solution in auto-sims, being able to drive through someone
lowers the challenge enormously.

Cheers!
John

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

You raise some good points, but OTOH I still question their *necessity*. If the
difference between *all* of this information and just the *necessary* stuff is the
difference between unplayable and playable multiplay then I still think my point stands.
It seems your point is that you want it all or you want nothing! Btw, I doubt you would be
in a 90% majority here.

> Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car would
> just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not talking
> about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the
> engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc

> I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing
> simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is
> astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate
> simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from
> their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work would
> not be acceptable to 90% of people.

> Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see
> the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN or
> the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it....

> M

> >> Okay try this on for size.

> >> Paramaters required by a racing sim at connection = setup details, driver
> >> details, car choice
> >> Paramaters during race = steering, throttle, brake positions, gear,
> >> orientation on the track.

> > Steering????? Why???????

> > Throttle - optional

> > Brake positions?????????? Why???????????????

> > Gear - optional

> > Orientation - of course

> > If these are you guesses, I hope your wrong. If not, the programmers are
> > clueless by
> >the looks of things to me! Way too much unnecessary info here!

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

> >There's no excuse for that
> attitude.

> Ummm.....there is, you know, David.
> "Economic viability" is the excuse: if only a minority of consumers are
> buying the product for that feature then it is uneconomical to spend
> time and resources on the in-house development of that feature. far
> wiser to spend those resources elsewhere in the "manufacture" of the
> product.

> --

I still say Bruce that you can talk as many statistics as you like, and I will link the
results to the consumers knowledge that online sim racing is currently a joke outside of
NROS. The buzz created by a good online sim racing game could change the results of a
survey in a flash ie people coming to the party when they hear the news. It's a matter of
when does the catalyst appear!

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

> > Steering????? Why???????

> So the orientation of your opponent's wheels can be seen while
> steering.

Host computer? (Like a shopping trolley - ie the wheels point where they're pushed)

Host computer? (Acceleration measurement)

Well, I doubt using brake positions would be efficient for doing this. More like a
parameter for each corner, only sent when applicable ie not rolling smoothly.

Transfer all opponents gear ratios before race? Or maybe entire setup?

by **Byron Forbe** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Why is it that a positional and orientational triplet is insufficient to deal with susp
travels?

Btw, how did we get into this anyway. Ping is the issue, not bandwidth. I dare say,
completely ignorant as I am to packet sizes, that all of the info anyone could want could
be contained in a single packet anyway! Yes or no?

> Well not really... the suspension dip on your road car is a function less of
> speed more of change in velocity be it braking, accelerating or cornering. The
> same applies to race cars.

> The client *does* calculate it but based on the parameters I stated rather
> than something as simple as a position triplet and velocity.

> m

> >alot of those effects can be handle client side i would think. like the
> >suspension movement you talk about, the server could send the speen and
> >track placement ect. to you and your comp. could figure out the suspension
> >movent etc.

> >Joe Conklin
> >For Central PA Online Gamers:
> >http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/
> >For Grand Prix Legends:
> >http://members.xoom.com/gplegends/

> >remove spam to reply

> >>Have you ever played a racing simulation? Without these things the car
> >would
> >>just move around a track on rails. The wheels would not turn (I'm not
> >talking
> >>about rotation here) when the car turned a corner, you wouldn't hear the
> >>engine notes change, see the effects of braking etc

> >>I seriously doubt you have given enough thought to what makes a racing
> >>simulation work as it does. The physics involved in modern racing sims is
> >>astounding and is fast catching up racing teams in terms of accurate
> >>simulations of the subject. Not only this but the players demand more from
> >>their sims and patchy multiplayer play as you seem to think would work
> >would
> >>not be acceptable to 90% of people.

> >>Personally I'd be bothered if when racing against the PC in GPL I could see
> >>the suspension move on the other cars but not when I was racing over my LAN
> >or
> >>the internet. Maybe I'm just a wacky perfectionist but I doubt it....

> >>M

> ><snip>

by **John Walla** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

Believe me, in GPL you are rarely travelling where your wheels are
pointing...

This varies depending upon gearing, uphill/downhill, fuel weight,
clutch engaged or not and a host of other things.

So you need to send the rotational speed of each wheel, same result.

Doesn't help. You squeeze every last rev out of your engine whereas I
shift up 2k early to avoid damage and lower fuel consumption.
Different shifting points despite same gearing.

Like I said, you can either approximate it or you can do it right. One
involves compromises, the other bandwidth issues. There is no
shortcut, you just weigh it up and set the balance as you see ift.

Cheers!
John

by **Goy Larse** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

> Why is it that a positional and orientational triplet is insufficient to deal with susp
> travels?

> Btw, how did we get into this anyway. Ping is the issue, not bandwidth. I dare say,
> completely ignorant as I am to packet sizes, that all of the info anyone could want could
> be contained in a single packet anyway! Yes or no?

Think so, no large amount of data in there

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
UncleGoy on TEN

by **Rafael Medeiro** » Sat, 29 Aug 1998 04:00:00

No sim will be even close to reality even if in the future we have good feedback seats and
real 3d vision(things like lasers sending a 3d images directly to your retine).The point
is ,it's a game and and i think that most of psycological aspects of motorsports comes
from the fact that's it's very very life(or at least ,injure) risky.
So ,what are the risks when you're playing on your pc for hours?No chance for a single
cut(unless your wife throws a can on you ,asking you for goto bed or giving her the
computer to play freecell(mine does play,but doesn't throw :)).
If not ,soon we'll be asking the developers (in the name of realism)to not give us saving
features for setups ,hotlaps,etc ,accerated time in qualifying(will GPL have it ,or will
we have to sit and watch the whole thing?),wait the real time it lasts to change your
gearing setup ,for example, and option for only 100% races.
It sound ridiculous, and in fact it is ,and these above will never be
implemented,Because it's only a game.

Rafael

rec.autos.simulators

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

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GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

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GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play

GPL on-line play