rec.autos.simulators

Hi Michael. I looked for the info on Thrustmasters site, and couldn't
find it...  Maybe I just missed it somehow.
An article in the press releases from June says they're working with
Immersion Technology, but no info on the delay.
I looked in a few other places, including the product page for the
MotorSport GP wheel, which is the FF wheel that was originally slated
for summer release.

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% > This brings up an interesting question.....
% >
% > Does ICR2, Nascar 2 and GP2 take advantage of two joystick axes for brake
% > and gas when available?????  The Thrustmaster T1/2 had the brake and gas on
% > the same axis.  The CH Pro Pedals had the brake and gas on two axes.  Now
% > the new TM wheel provides two axes support.  Is this all moot??? Do
% > Microprose and Papyrus program their sims to take advantage of two axes or
% > do they add some code to convert the two axes into an equivalent single
% > axis?????  In other words, you're entering turn 1 of your favorite sim.
% > Which is better, lifting off the throttle without braking, or keeping the
% > throttle floored and left foot braking?  Does the sim make a programmatic

% Well since you can do this maneuver with a T2 is is moot :-) I do it
% all the time.
% It somewhat simulated the "balancing" that some F1 drivers do.

While it can be done with combined axis for the pedals, the results in
Papyrus sims when on separate axis is more accurately modeled.  Thus
providing a more accurate and precise reaction to such actions as
trail-braking.  However, Papyrus sims does not accurately model this
100% (see earlier post in this thread).

% Seriously though. I really like TM stuff in general. Heck I even was a beta
% tester for them at one point. I seriously thought the Nascar Pro rig was
% cheap
% looking. Sorry. I really did not think it was a reasonable upgrade to a 10
% month old T2.

While I can agree with your accessment of the NASCAR Pro not being a
reasonable upgrade to a 10 month old T2, I am somewhat confused by your
statements saying that the "NASCAR Pro rig was cheap looking".  I don't
know, not having seen the beta version, but would assume that the most
beta versions where not "housed" in the final production housing.  I fin
the construction and design of the NASCAR Pro to be an improvement over
the T1/T2.  While the earlier T1's (limited editions) where in metal
housings, I still find the overall design of the NASCAR Pro to be more
solid and yes even "less cheap".  

The NASCAR Pro is housed in "thick" and solid modeled hi-impact
plastics.  The construction and design of the wheel (while smaller than
the stock T1/2 series), is more solid and much more comfortable.  While
its size is similar to the GP1 wheel, I think the construction is more
solid and I really appreciate the "molded" grips and the cushion.  The
wheel is more in design to a CART/PPG car's wheel than a Winston Cup
car's.  The design of the stick shift is an marked improvement over the
T1/2 series.

The pedal base and pedal mechanisms are a vast improvement over the T1/2
design and construction.   If the construction of the NASCAR Pro seemed
cheap to you and it is the same construction as the final product, it
may be that you are just adverse to "plastic".  Take a look at today's
modern fighter planes or CART/F1 cars.  While they may not be "plastic"
they sure see cheap compared to the planes and cars that were pure
metal. ;-)  To quote a line from "Twin Peaks", "wrapped in plastic".

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% This brings up an interesting question.....

% Does ICR2, Nascar 2 and GP2 take advantage of two joystick axes for brake
% and gas when available?????  The Thrustmaster T1/2 had the brake and gas on
% the same axis.  The CH Pro Pedals had the brake and gas on two axes.  Now
% the new TM wheel provides two axes support.  Is this all moot??? Do
% Microprose and Papyrus program their sims to take advantage of two axes or
% do they add some code to convert the two axes into an equivalent single
% axis?????  In other words, you're entering turn 1 of your favorite sim.
% Which is better, lifting off the throttle without braking, or keeping the
% throttle floored and left foot braking?  Does the sim make a programmatic
% distinction between the two when you have a separate axes for brake and
% gas???  If you are using the T1 or T2 pedals, the answer is no.  I'm
% curious about the CH Pro and the TM Pro pedals.

Yes.  I am not sure exactly how well GP2 models this, but one can select
a different axis or even joystick for the gas and brake in GP2.  I do
find that the control of the car is much better with separate axis in
GP2.  Especially noticable in trail-braking, slightly touching the
brakes while under throttle to shift the weigh towards the front wheels
for steering purposes.

As to Papyrus sims, I tested this out in N2.  With combined pedals (all
on the same axis) with both throttle and brake fully depressed --
Nothing, no revs not movement.  With the pedals on separate axis and
both pedals fully depressed -- max revs and no movement -- the car just
sits there and spins the rear wheels.  While not an accurate re-creation
of reality, it does show that the modeling is different with separate
axis.  On the track there is a noticable difference.  Braking is much
more precise.  I can easily keep on the throttle and use the brake to
slow down and when I let off the brake acceleration is quicker to
respond.

(Note:  Please follow this thread to for more information)
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% My understanding is that the Papyrus sims do not model the gas and brake
% separately. When you step on the brake, it overrides the gas pedal, even if
% they are on separate axes.
(Note: for news servers that don't honor supersedes or cancels this is
an enhanced post).

While Papyrus sims does not "accurately" model separate axis for brake
and throttle, there is a marked difference in how the program reacts
between combined and separate axis.  There is an advantage to having the
inputs on separate axis, however, it is not exactly the same as in real
life.

Here is Jim Sokoloff's explanation from the an older r.a.s. post:
ubject:      Re: How do pedals / wheels work?

Date:         1997/04/26

Newsgroups:   rec.autos.simulators

In pedal sets with gas and brake wired together, the computer can only
read one value. (Think of it as Value = Throttle - Brakes.) If you
keep your foot on the throttle, and press the brakes 10%, the computer
will read (in percentages for simplicity:)

Value = 100% - 10% (+ 90%  or 90% throttle, 0% brakes)

If you get off the throttle and 50% on the brakes, you'll get:

Value = 0% - 50% (-50% or 0% throttle, 50% brakes)

If you have 30% throttle and 50% brakes, the computer sees -20%, which
is 0% throttle, 20% brakes.

In the case of split axes (gas and brake not electrically connected),
the game reads the true value for brakes and throttle, and uses logic
similar to:

/* Account for noise in brake value reading */
If (brakes > 5%) {
        throttle = 0%

Maybe that's clearer. Sorry for the earlier confusion.
---Jim

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% Greg Cisko wrote in article

% >Purchased a Thrustmaster Nascar Pro Racing Wheel at 13:07 at Circuit
% >City for $129. Get home at 13:45 open box. When I opened the box &
% >notice that the wheel looks rather cheap. In my opinion it looks nothing
% >like what the picture on the box looks like. All of a sudden I am not so
% >sure it is better than my T2. Thankfully the throttle did not work. When
% >I pushed the throttle to calibrate, nothing happened. Everything else
% >worked OK though. The base *DID* mount to my desk much better, but
% >that alone is not worth the $129 cost. I got my money back at 14:57. At
% >one time I really liked TM, but this one is a turkey IMHO.

I don't know where you had trouble calibrating the throttle.  However, I
have discovered that Papyrus sims are a little whacky when it comes to
setting up their Sims with a different controller than the current
setup/calibration.  While I was testing the differences today between
combined and separate pedal axis, I ran into similar problems.  The
answer is to delete the calib.val and control.cfg files from you Papyrus
sim directory and start from scratch in calibration and configuration.  
For some reason their sims don't recognize the fact that a different
controller configuration may be plugged in and refuses to listen to the
new controller.

BTW:  I see you really gave the NASCAR Pro a good solid evaluation.
Unless you lived right next door to Circuit City and they refunded your
money the second you walked in the door, you couldn't have spent more
than a 1/2 hour to 45 minutes max with the setup.  Just an
observation...

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I haven't seen the beta version either. I said I used to beta test for them
(I signed an NDA a couple of years ago). You seem to think that means
I beta tested this rig or something. I did not. And I really have no relationship
with them anymore.

This I agree with. The new pedals certainly are an improvement.
Too bad they didn't work :-) I am sure it was something *I* was doing
wrong though.

The plastic (carbon fiber) in F1 and CART cars have no similarity
to the plastic used in the NASCAR Pro wheel. Nice try :-)

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Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

There's no need to get defensive, as no one is accusing you.  Michael and I
both made simple the observation that if the pedal switch was set to
separate, then the gas and brake would have been on separate joysticks which
can cause problems with some versions of Win95's joystick control panel as
well as some games.  There's always the possibility that a wire came loose
during shipping (I've seen UPS guys basically kicking packages around), but
the switch would have been the first thing I would have checked.  You
obviously didn't care for the wheel, so you returned it without looking into
the problem very much.  It's really not a big deal.

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http://ebusch.akorn.net

A correct observation. I know a turkey when I see it. I don't need
much more than 1/2 hour to 45 minutes.

I haven't used it in a race yet, I have just been practicing, as the feel
IS a bit different.. however it is a Michael says... its a different
feel... holding down the brakes and gas you can more or less do a wheel
stand... I think I will very much prefer it for feel as I get more used to
it. Here is where the plans for the switches are:
http://www.oz.net/~wottenad/switches.htm.

BTW I don't know if I would do this to a new T2... I have had mine for
quite some time (I think I got the first one they made lol) and felt
comfortable with changing it without worrying about voiding a warranty.  If
anyone has any questions I can help out some but Wally's World had all the
information I needed, I just needed to take my time and do a lot of
checking with my multi-meter.  It was worth it though!

SmallTalk