rec.autos.simulators

: I would love to hear from others on this...

: GP2 deals with processor overload by slowing the world time down rather than
: dropping frames. That's why things seem like they are in slow motion on first
: turns of races, time really is moving slower. Every other sim I can think of,
: from ICR2/NASCAR to flying sims to mech warrior sims will drop frames rather
: than slow down time.
[snip]

I agree.  I don't totally hate it, but I does add a kinda arcadish touch
to the sim.  However, I don't like how Papyrus has handled their sims
when it comes to the first corner either.  Instead of the simulated
world time slowing down, the AI's brains go into slow motion.  I'm
running along and all of a sudden the cars ahead of me are going
half-speed.  It's not a gradually "braking" affect.  It also seems that
the AI have memory gaps.  I guess the cpu is overtaxed and can't keep
the AI's memory cups full.  

Dropping frames can be hazardous too.  As the frame rate drops any
driving correction is multiplied by the frame drop rate.  I guess until
we all get multi-cpu machines with full blown 3D video cards, we will
have to live with the limitations.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

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I would love to hear from others on this...

GP2 deals with processor overload by slowing the world time down rather than
dropping frames. That's why things seem like they are in slow motion on first
turns of races, time really is moving slower. Every other sim I can think of,
from ICR2/NASCAR to flying sims to mech warrior sims will drop frames rather
than slow down time.

To me, if you cannot rely on the world time being constant, you cannot rely on
what you see to pick up time/distance cues. Having the world time change as you
approach a hairpin corner is as much a problem as having the distances changing
in real time. Imagine trying to drive into a corner while the track was
changing shape! But if time/distance cues are how we drive a sim, having the
world time change is just the same thing.

This says to me that GP2 is is a Twilight Zone sim and not a racing sim if time
can slow down and speed up. And that happens very easily with GP2, no matter
what the graphics are set to, whenever there are several cars close.

Is this a problem for others as well as me? I would love to know.

Bill aka BillyJoe on Hawaii

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Did it ever occur to you that it's possible that the game just uses a
different approach to the matter ? It doesn't use REAL time for
determination of the lap times or the distances or whatever. If it did
lap times might be manualy altered by slowing clocks down or people
would come up with other tricks. In GP2 all is done by looking at the
cars' characteristics while you're driving. Speed, accelaration,
distance etc, determine the time, not visa versa. That's why you can
score the same time with processor overload, and not be twice as slow
when your processor is 200% busy. Automatically reducing frame rate
doesn't seem to be a good thing to me, since frame rates could drop down
to a level that's non playable. Imagine doing a start with five frames a
second! I then would prefer the game to temporarely slow down.

The only anoying thing about slowing down is that things don't go as
fast as in the real world, but it's actually quite easily made better.
Make sure that your processor is about 80% busy at normal driving(use
the 'O' key on your keyborad !), by reducing the frame rate 2/3 fps
lower than estimated or removing some detail. If you'd do race now you'd
notice that most of the times things go as fast as the real thing and
just occasionaly go a bit slower. You'll probably won't even notice.

So, it's not a matter of slowing time down or speeding time up. Time
will go as fast as ever, fast if you're having fun and slow when you're
bored.

If you consider GP2 a Twilight Zone sim, you'd better watch out for
those X-files !!!!(They'll do terrible things to your harddisk)

See Ya, Eddy

But are you sure this slowing down happens during racing?..I thought it
only happened during replays...if it does,then just as in many other
ways,this is not a sim...it's an Arcade game!,and falsely advertised.

Frame rate is the question..with better detail control,neither frame
skipping or slow down would be necessary,coz we could tunethe graphics.

Of course,they want us all to buy new P200's...I've got a P120..that
should be good enough in most circumstances,but it's not.

Only poor sales would cause them to look more seriously at these
matters,but as a collective buying group,Sim Racers will buy it anyway.

I did!  mmff!
rgs
John.

...and when will that day be coming? ;)  I want to mark it in my wish
list calendar of PC upgrades/purchases! (currently Xmas '96)  :)

Kyle

I even believe some guy called Einstein said that time goes SLOWER when you
yourself move FASTER.
Is the conclusion that it doesn't really matter how fast you drive?

?!x%?!

(confused people please consult your psychiatrist)

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Sal V.

Well you have some good points. But I think that this is an
interesting approach to the issue of framerate vs graphics. Those that
dont care too much about absolute authenticity can play it with all
the graphic options on and see a real pretty sim while the action goes
on slow enough that they can react to it. Those that that kind of
thing bothers can just adjust the desired framerate down 2-3 frames
below the estimated and lower the graphic options down and enjoy the
sim at speed. I know the sim absolutely ROCKS on my 166 but then again
I dont have textures on BANKS, VERGES, SKY  but who needs them Im
driving a F1 car not sightseeing.

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand

I usually run the game so that it's around 70% processor occupancy on
average so that you need a lot of stuff on-screen before it goes over 100%

The frame rate can drop considerably when there are a lot of cars
creating a lot of smoke - turning smoke off makes a big difference.

It has very good detail control. The main control that's missing is to make
it flat-shade the polygons on cars to reduce the slow-down when a lot
of cars are on screen.

If you're prepared to drop to low (VGA) res, then it handles texture mapping
everything without any problems... but personally I prefer to run in SVGA
with no textures than drive in legoland...

--

Whatever it was I just said was probably just personal opinion
rather than the official view of my employer.

Think of like this:-
reducing frame rate:- you might miss your braking point because you skipp right passed it in
betweenn frames (you can be travling at arround 200mph).
slowing the game down:- no frames skipped, so you won't miss your braking point.

However, the game should ONLY slow down when *A LOT* is happining, the game should not slow down
when you brake normally for a bend.
please note that the recomended frames per second (fps) is a bit on the generous side. Set up
your graphic options, and the set the fps to the reconended fps - (minus) 2 or 3fps for a smooth
ride. It sounds strange, but it does work - try it.

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    If you believe in happiness,        its because of unhappiness
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Actually, I don't really mind the time slow down that occurs
when the processor occupancy goes over 100%. If the CPU can't
handle it, then there's nothing you can do... by adjusting your
frame rate you can decide if you prefer to slow down real-time
or have a lower frame rate.

But what I don't like is the fact that the game doesn't make
full use of the CPU when the processor occupancy goes below 100%.
Think of all those wasted clock cycles... The way it is now, you
can adjust your worst-case but at the expense of your best-case!

However, I think I understand why it has been coded that way. If
you think about it, the sim-time difference between each frame
is always constant (1/FPS second), no matter how long it takes
to create and display the frame in real-time. I'm sure this
probably simplified a lot the coding...

i.e. 20 FPS -> 1 frame = 0.05 s

     1) reset real-time timer
     2) increase sim-time by 0.05 s
     3) calculate frame
     4) display frame
     5) if real-time timer < 0.05 s then
           wait until timer reaches 0.05 s
           goto 1
        else
           goto 1
        endif

Patrick

: >Think of like this:-
: >reducing frame rate:- you might miss your braking point because you skipp right passed it in
: >betweenn frames (you can be travling at arround 200mph).
: >slowing the game down:- no frames skipped, so you won't miss your braking point.

: Ah, but you might (as I have done) misjudge your actual speed and not
: brake enough.  When it seems like you're moving 30 mph slower, there's
: that much less braking that you think you'll need.

Good fast racing is a rhythm thing.  One gets the rhythm down and one
does well.  I develope a feel for when/how long/how hard/ to brake, when
to shift, when/how fast/how hard/ to accelerate.
S-L-O-O-O-O-W-W-W-W-W'ing down the race world creates havoc on my
rhythm.  I brake too early, brake too hard, over accelerate and generally
blow it.  Steering isn't too bad though.  I'm sorry, but it just doesn't
cut the mustard, however it certainly does cut-the-cheese :-)
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

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The braking example that you give is great but acceleration out of corners
is also affected.  It's very easy to apply too much throttle and spin.

The argument against slowing the frame rate (slowing time instead) because
you might miss your braking point ignores the ability of a driver to see
the braking point from a distance and _time_ his application of the brakes.
You don't have to see the marker at the instant you hit the brakes.  The timing
of the brake point stays the same every lap.

I love playing GP2 on my dx4/100 while hot lapping but racing isn't much fun
with the constant warping of time.  The feeling of immersion and realism in
the sim is ruined every time it happens.

--
Pat Dotson