"Move along, move along" - Random Stormtrooper
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
> --
> Joe M.
> > GPL is the greatest single peice of software ever created and after 4
yrs
> is
> > still probly the best game ever for racing (at least round proper tracks
> :).
> > IMO (having only played gt1/2/3 on consoles)gpl is about...2 million
times
> > better.
> > dan
> > > Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator a
> > game?
> > > or Software
> > > Also Im sure that mid season of the first Gran Turismo release some
> people
> > > would have been more than happy to fork out big bucks.
> > > I have quite a friends(never used a computer before) even queryed
> playing
> > > computer games and purchasing a playstation duing the first months of
> this
> > > release.
> > > Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game Gran Turimo 2 -3
are
> > > games.
> > > I built(Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal gear ratio's) a
Mazda
> > RX4
> > > (RealOne)to beat most modern modern cars using the gear ratio's
> calculated
> > > from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a thousand combinations of
> > weight
> > > to power ,although the car is illegal is annother story but the specs
> > worked
> > > out within 10th of a sec right.
> > > (no I dont play Gran Turismo any More)
> > > I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a Software liecence?)
> > > Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which converts it
to
> a
> > > GT ?)
> > > Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi)
> > > Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com with popular
> game
> > > sites?
> > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > Just annother Programmer spewing all over the floor
> > > > >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right
could
> > > fetch
> > > > >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a
> > fraction
> > > > >better.
> > > > If by "produced right" you mean a *** delivers it and lets you
> > > > splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree.
> > > > Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy
> > > > simulations discussed here.
> > > > Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge that
> > > > they are just that -games.
No, I think GT3 stands head and shoulders above all of those other games in
terms of the feel of what the car is doing. GT3 is the only game I have ever
played (with the exception of the GTR2002 mod) which felt like driving a car
in real life. And that includes Papy sims. GTR2002 is better than all Papy
sims for this feel. Neither GTR2002 nor GT3 have it yet, but GT3 is on one
side of the peak, and GTR2002 is on the other.
Firstly, optimal tyre temps and traction circles are not basic concepts of
driving a car. Racing a car, yes, but not driving. Neither GPL nor NASCAR
2002 model optimal tyre temps realistically, and there are plently of
fantastic GPL drivers who don't know about traction circles. Traction
circles, after all, are a graphical aid to help understand the actions of a
car. Some people are born with this innate ability, some people learn it
from driving, some people learn it from a piece of paper with concentric
circles on. If you say 'traction circle' to the first two sets of people,
you'll get a blank look. If you then show them a traction circle readout,
they will know exactly what you are talking about, but they just represent
it differently in their mind.
If you do take these things into account when driving in NR2002, GPL or GT,
then arguably you will be a better racer in all of these games, but they are
not necessary. Also bear in mind that GT does something that Papy never
figured out - it appeals to Mr. Average. That's why there is an arcade mode
(which used to come on it's own CD in GT2). You don't need to care about
things like tyre temps in there, and most people play this part of the game
because they just want to see the Pug 206 they have in real life racing
around. These people are the vast majority.
That's the idea in all racing games. Hitting the throttle for as short a
time as possible won't get you any world records ;-). Remember the throttle
'triggers' are analogue, and blasting them in Pro level in the GT One at
Monaco is going to spin you out just as much as nailing the throttle in GPL
or NR2002 will. And remember, most Logitech wheels work with the PS2 out of
the box. Also, do I remember talk of people holding the throttle down while
they brake in Papy sims? I don't know anybody who does that in GT3.
In a 'GT type' game, that is true, but Gran Turismo itself models this much
more realistically. A GPL driving style works best in GT3 in the 'exciting'
cars.
I am not saying that GT3 is the best sim around, I am just arguing that GT
is a hell of a lot better at simulating than most folks in here give it
credit for. Going into your local game store and playing the arcade mode for
15 minutes will not give you a good impression of the simulation aspect, but
running through the later License Tests when the driving aids start being
removed makes you realise that it is pretty advanced stuff. The number of
available cars outdoes all other sims, especially as they are all modelled
to perfection. GT3 is the only game where the cars actually look like they
are driving on the track to me, not floating above it to a greater or lesser
extent. The mix of tracks, real-life (like Laguna Seca and Monaco) and
fantasy work well together (they can make tracks which are fun to drive, not
be forced to model them on roundabouts or constant chicanes). And, as I
mentioned before, GT3 is the only game which feels like my road car, in
terms of available grip, and the feel when you start to lose it. Entry
understeer coupled with exit oversteer. Tyre temps are modelled, tyre grip
is modelled. Take a Lotus Elise out for an endurance race at an oval, and
compare the tyre wear (graphically) with NR2002. But then realise that you
can *feel* the difference. You alter your driving style and line to account
for the uneven wear. In NR2002, you just need to remember to brake a touch
earlier to account for slightly reduced grip. And that's not to mention the
upgrade section of the game, which is utterly fantastic. These aren't just
plugging in different numbers - you can feel the difference in throttle
response between two relatively identical horsepower increases. And the fact
that this system works accurately with all the cars in the game.
Granted, all this stuff takes a while with the game to uncover, but it's not
too unreasonable to ask people to have a lengthy playtest before reaching a
conclusion. After all, if we all played GPL for 5 minutes before giving up,
where would we all be now?
Nick. (getting a bit sick and tired of arguing these points, but still a rac
ing simulation fan).
"Dan_Leach" <
How can you say IL2 is better than F4? To me the both behave exactly
the same. I go up. I fall down.
dave henrie
---
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F4 stands above the crowd in the flight-sim genre. The dynamic campaign in
F4 is the most elaborate ever created and would be worthy of praise were it
a stand alone strategy/war game. IL-2 is just approaching a semi-dynamic
campaign as a full priced "add-on" with Forgotten Battles (with nowhere near
the complexity of F4).
Getting back to my original point ;0) > F4 is far more sophisticated
software than GPL and arguably the best piece of simulation software ever
created.
--
Joe M.
> > --
> > Joe M.
> > > GPL is the greatest single peice of software ever created and after 4
> yrs
> > is
> > > still probly the best game ever for racing (at least round proper
tracks
> > :).
> > > IMO (having only played gt1/2/3 on consoles)gpl is about...2 million
> times
> > > better.
> > > dan
> > > > Toy Simulators---Where can I get a not toy simulator?Is a simulator
a
> > > game?
> > > > or Software
> > > > Also Im sure that mid season of the first Gran Turismo release some
> > people
> > > > would have been more than happy to fork out big bucks.
> > > > I have quite a friends(never used a computer before) even queryed
> > playing
> > > > computer games and purchasing a playstation duing the first months
of
> > this
> > > > release.
> > > > Games ? Gran Turismo 1 went futher than just a game Gran Turimo 2 -3
> are
> > > > games.
> > > > I built(Yes Built No mechanics can go near illegal gear ratio's) a
> Mazda
> > > RX4
> > > > (RealOne)to beat most modern modern cars using the gear ratio's
> > calculated
> > > > from GranTurismo as an easy way of testing a thousand combinations
of
> > > weight
> > > > to power ,although the car is illegal is annother story but the
specs
> > > worked
> > > > out within 10th of a sec right.
> > > > (no I dont play Gran Turismo any More)
> > > > I am very confused as to what is GPL (is this a Software liecence?)
> > > > Also what is GTR2002? (is this an Addon for F1 2002 which converts
it
> to
> > a
> > > > GT ?)
> > > > Also which F1 2002 ? (EA Ubi)
> > > > Why isn't GTR2002 making headlines like americasarmy.com with
popular
> > game
> > > > sites?
> > > > ----------------------------------------------------
> > > > Just annother Programmer spewing all over the floor
> > > > > >What is this company thinking these PC titles if produced right
> could
> > > > fetch
> > > > > >up to $1000.00 per title provided the simuation level was made a
> > > fraction
> > > > > >better.
> > > > > If by "produced right" you mean a *** delivers it and lets you
> > > > > splooge all over her face before she leaves, then I agree.
> > > > > Other than that, even $100 is on the outer fringes of the toy
> > > > > simulations discussed here.
> > > > > Not a slam on racing games, I love them, but I also acknowledge
that
> > > > > they are just that -games.
> > All of this said, we are still a full decade at best from having a
> > 100% authentic race car simulator. However, the above games, as well
> > as Grand Prix Legends, all reward using real life racing techniques
> > and car setup theory.
> Both points agreed. Finally somebody who realises that GPL isn't the last
> word in racing simulations <g>. And we'll ignore the, uh, 'idiosynracies'
in
> NR2002 setup...
> > The Gran Turismo series does a great job of
> > allowing someone to experience the thrill of driving high performance
> > cars with a gamepad. Then again, so does Sega GT 2002, and Project
> > Gotham Racing, Metropolis Street Racer, Rallisport Challenge, and F355
> > all arguably do an ever better job.
> No, I think GT3 stands head and shoulders above all of those other games
in
> terms of the feel of what the car is doing. GT3 is the only game I have
ever
> played (with the exception of the GTR2002 mod) which felt like driving a
car
> in real life. And that includes Papy sims. GTR2002 is better than all Papy
> sims for this feel. Neither GTR2002 nor GT3 have it yet, but GT3 is on one
> side of the peak, and GTR2002 is on the other.
F355 in the arcade is even better. 3 pedals on the floor, gated shifter and
even more realistic physics. I have not driven anything that has felt more
realistic than F355 in the arcade (GPL, N2002, Nascar Racing Experience and
GTR2002 mod included).
--
Joe M.
You are right, I haven't played F355 in the arcade. I'll have to take a look
around the local arcades sometime if it is that well recommended. Thanks.
Nick.
Hmmmmmmmmm. I'm quite sure GPL has a better tyre model <g>
Remco
I'm pretty sure the flight dynamics of GPL are lacking, though ;-).
And besides, neither of them accurately simulate golf, or jet skis, or sex,
so they are both ***sims <g>.
Nick (waiting for somebody to say GPL=SEX...).
> >as for the GTR MOD it would be rather easy to play graphic desigher for a
> >day and play with some config files to create a few more cars which do
> >nothing other than mock the game itself.
> I normally don't back away from arguing with idiots, but this time I
> have to pass. I honestly don't even know where to begin, other than
> to say that you should do some research into the arguments you're
> making. At this point you're discussing things that you have no
> experience with or knowledge of.
> As far as GTR2002 goes, it was designed by an accomplished
> professional sports car race engineer using data from his actual shop.
> It has been tested by drivers for the FIA GT series and other top
> sports car drivers in order to make sure that the driving feel and
> actual mechanics of the car and tires are as convincing as possible
> given the limitations of PC hardware.
> Another simulation that is worth keeping an eye on is Nascar 2003
> which is being released by the developers of Indycar Racing, Grand
> Prix Legends and the Nascar Racing Series. Always a few steps ahead
> of other simulations, this year's version (the final in the series) is
> based around data that has been gathered with the assistance of
> Goodyear Tire and Jasper Motorsports. Early previews from the race
> engineer involved in the project indicates that tires will heat and
> wear in a way that is completely authentic and that setups can be
> taken directly from a real stock car and applied to the sim.
> All of this said, we are still a full decade at best from having a
> 100% authentic race car simulator. However, the above games, as well
> as Grand Prix Legends, all reward using real life racing techniques
> and car setup theory. The Gran Turismo series does a great job of
> allowing someone to experience the thrill of driving high performance
> cars with a gamepad. Then again, so does Sega GT 2002, and Project
> Gotham Racing, Metropolis Street Racer, Rallisport Challenge, and F355
> all arguably do an ever better job. I don't see any one playing these
> games and talking about optimal tire temperatures or traction circles,
> then again I'm not sure that those basic concepts of driving a car
> really apply in those particular game worlds. Generally it's hold
> down the throttle trigger for as long as possible, hit the brake
> trigger as late as possible (often while still holding the throttle
> trigger), hit the throttle trigger as quickly as possible and hold it
> down. In GT type game there's really no point in practicing things
> like trail braking since raw lateral velocity is more important than
> weight transfer when determining the optimal line through a corner.
> Anyway, do yourself a favor and get a decent PC wheel and copies of
> the above mentioned simulations.
> Jason
LOL... priceless.
Jan.
=---
> LOL... priceless.
--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
-- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
-- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
Corporation - helping America into the New World...
Hey Im not on show you might be
Dont forget your intellect .
Please remember this is Usernet not some black tie affair of the
immagination.
This means that users use usernet and some users are illiterate dumb and
just dribble on shit like me.
Well would it have been usefull for me to agree with some dribble not worth
reading.
Dam I will tell you a great usernet story. O by the way maybee you like
things over your head so everyone knows what they are doing but you
therefore your grand repect for the google achives also maybee you should
try using moderated groups where your kind veiw is highly repected as being
responisble ,however come to think of it you could if you knew how to think
before dribbling contact the ower of this group as every usernet group has a
group owner be it moderated or not and complain about what a waste of space
in the google achives jesse's posts are ,although it be irrealavent to
usernet all together.
Did you know you can create your own usernet group for free WOW wouldn't
google be proud to host your group everything posted on lines and speel
checked for the ulimate perfection in composer promising your love for
crapping race sims is not just a hobby but a object that rules your life and
reactions.
Now... back to tthe usernet story I was about to tell.
I speend alot of my time in a support group helping users solve problems
with software installation and configuration, and there is 2 main people
that do alot of good in this group. Now the software focas is on windows and
linux me being the only windows user that seems to help users that have
really lost it in the head and the other user praises linux and talks by it
providing extra support when it is not needed and thinks he's great doing so
double posting right.
hey do a gogle serach and you will find wat groups i use and what I talk of.
Any how this user seems to think its and ustandind usetr of everything and
act really straight on.
After 3 months of putting up with this user I was on Kazza andlooking for
Doc books on strange usless sujects like DHTML and stuff I really never
bothered to know about when in the seach list I see this users very distinct
name NOW this name is distinct the chances of annother user using the same
name are the same chances of the first user name I ever used this being
"coldascold"(do google search for coldascold there is 1 other user that has
every used this name online form my userstanding ! maybee not now as maybee
you will be influenced as this other one user may have been infulenced.
Any how I thought that could not be this user but thought It has to be so I
searched on for the users files and low and behold this user is no ordinary
linux user supporting windows users O No this user users a CRACKED version
of VMVARE and is this means the user spends more time with windows than with
linux as by static's 98% of linux users never use illeagal software as there
is noneed to as Linux has ten times the programs and features of windows.
WOW it amazing who you deal with in usernet and who really cares
Main point this User I was talking about dose alot of good providing free
support to users battling with thier windows software yet is a total looser
having to use an emulator to use linux. KEY word AOL VIRUS ( I should have
guessed.)
Hey Maybe you guess why I didnt read the users post above Just dribbling on
shit.
read all this and your a real loser as it anit every going to do you any
good.
> > LOL... priceless.
> Yes thank god for Google archiving such posts. They can't be forgotten :)
> --
> -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>
> -- http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> -- This announcement is brought to you by the Shimago-Dominguez
> Corporation - helping America into the New World...
Please - go on :). We haven't had any quality trolls on 'usernet'
since DKS got debunked and CleveB went back into the bunker to finish
Grimoire.
Kendt
No! Not both mentioned in the same post.
Could be one of the signs of the end times.
Elrikk
PS. When is Grimoire coming out anyway ? ;o)
