rec.autos.simulators

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

Larr

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Larr » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:38:43

I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess...

We are NOT racing tomorrow.

That is the only thing that has come out of this.  I could care less about
rules.  I will follow whatever is posted.  It doesn't matter to me.

What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on Saturdays, and that is not
going to happen tomorrow.

That's what it all boils down to.

Now, before all this started if Eldred would have posted on Sunday that he
needs to take a break, and there won't be any races for a few weeks, I'd say
Good for you Eldred!  Thanks for your efforts, and you deserve the time off!

But that's not the way this came about.

But he still deserves thanks and a break :)

-Larry


> Sorry this is so late, I have been having problems...



> > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with
> > regards RASCAR here lately....  ;-)   I think it's time to put the facts
> > straight before I go away....

> I don't think you've ruined anything.  On the contrary, you've got folks
> talking about what they want out of the races, which is good.  Talk is
> always good, even if folks wind up getting their panties in a wad over
> stuff.  Heck, I see John Simmons has even volunteered another race
recap...
> proves time heals all wounds.

> > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the
> > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes I
> can
> > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new or
to
> > understand why it went wrong.....

> I'd like to say I do this, but I can't.  I do almost always watch the
> replays of incidents I was involved in, unless it was something obvious.
> Sometimes I stick around and watch the faster drivers if I go out for some
> reason.  You can usually learn something about how different lines can
> affect exit speeds, lap times, etc.

> > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays -  (although
I
> > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we can
> make
> > this work without much work at all.  What is needed though is that we go
> > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch
shouldnt
> > be a problem for drivers anyway...

> > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that
> > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely...
> > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to do
> is
> > ask...

> I don't see how this is really any different from what you have now, other
> than it is additional work somebody would have to do.

> > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can join
> the
> > races or more importantly - who can't!

> Again, it's just more work, and you might as well form a league - however
> informal.

> One thing that you mentioned that probably would help would be for
somebody
> (preferably more than one somebody) to be the boss.  I have a slightly
> different take on it, though.  This person should "just" be a boss, and
not
> actively race.  This person would act as "the RASCAR officials".  Assuming
> the group can agree on a basic set of rules (or Eldred mandates them, I
> suppose), this person(s) would be charged with making sure nobody breaks
the
> rules, issues warnings, corrective action, etc.  At various points during
> practice and warmup, the short list of rules would be read.  Drivers would
> then ignore them at their own peril.

> Now this person has a lot of responsibility, and let's face it, doing
> something like this is not fun, is a whole lot like work, and leaves you
> open for all kinds of BS criticism and even retribution.  I suggest  the
> core group of racers take on this responsibility and then rotate the job.
> If some in the RAS crowd are really serious about wanting/needing reform,
> they should be willing to make this occasional sacrifice to see that
things
> improve.

> You could dispense with all the trouble of a list by having some active
> policing going on.  Somebody who repeatedly "just doesn't get it" should
be
> called on the carpet for it and subjected to some good ol' negative
> reinforcement by the group.  I dont really think there will be very much
of
> that.

> I dont get to race with you guys as often as I would like, but I think
> everyone here is basically after the same things: friendly atmosphere,
good
> competition, and a low-key approach.

> The problem areas you point out are not suprising.  I am amazed that you
had
> the time and willingness to collect all this objective data.  Maybe in
> NR2003, it will all be generated for us automatically.  Yeah, right!

> I am a big fan of not racing back to caution.  If there is trouble
ANYWHERE
> on the track, every drivers first and only priority should be not making
it
> worse.  It is as simple as just stop racing for position.  You don't have
to
> (and probably shouldn't) slow up very much until the s/f line.  Any place
> else is just potential confusion.  Just stop trying to pass the car in
> front, stop trying to block the car behind and watch out for trouble.
Give
> and take.  Then, when you get to the s/f line, just lift and let the car
> slow naturally.  And watch out for trouble.

> Towards the end of the race, this gets harder and harder to do willingly!
> It really is a personal thing, how much risk for how much reward.
> Personally, I would probably stop trying to pass (unless it is for a win)
> and concentrate on making my car VERY WIDE to any who might be trying to
get
> by.  To each his own, though.

> In terms of restarts,  I am not sure how moving the s/f line to the back
> stretch is going to solve much of anything.  You have to start racing
> somewhere, and the s/f line is as good a place as any.  I think the real
> challenge is to make people practice pacing and restarts and running in
> traffic with as much effort as they put into hotlapping and building
setups.
> The relative low number of these in coparison to total laps run suggest it
> really isn't as big an issue as the racing back.  But, I suppose the
> potential repurcussions might be higher, though you don't give any data to
> support this either way.

> The number of incidents while pacing is just rediculous.  I mean, shit,
> guys, is it really that hard?  One is too many.

> Warp: what can you say?  Just remember to give some room.  If you don't
and
> it bites you it is your own fault.  Most of us are *** enough to bail if
> people complain that we are warping too much.

> Self spins: we all do it.  Is to be expected.  Move on.  Learn.

> One thing that I encourage everyone to do is learn how to wreck.  If you
> spin out, lock up the brakes.  Your car will at least then go in a
> predictable direction for the folks behind you.  Then, when you come to a
> halt, do everyone a favor and either sit stationary until the entire field
> has been collected under caution, or else call a tow truck if it looks
like
> the yellow won't come out.  If you blow any tires, call a tow truck.  If
> you're in the groove, you might consider driving to the apron if you can
do
> so very easily and without spinning back onto the track.  If you can then
> drive on safely, make a courtesy call to the pits to get repaired and
> replace your flat-spotted tires.  Maybe I am opening another can of worms
> here, but I think it is something to think (and hopefully talk) about.
More
> give and take.

> Shit, I can be long winded, too.  I hope you have fun in Brazil. Thanks
for
> all your input so far.

> Gerald

Jan Verschuere

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:37:03

Let's not jump to conclusions here... there's always more than one way to
skin a cat. RASCAR is a diverse group, which might be privy to more
resources than we realise at the moment. Perhaps someone has access to a
league server, perhaps we can take control of the open RAS server (or a Papy
one) or, if push comes to shove, someone on cable or ASDL can host a couple
drivers. I say let's meet regardless and meanwhile have a look around at our
options.

I agree we run the risk of not having a server or having party poopers
joining in, but if you're passionate enough about racing I'm sure that's a
risk worth taking.

Jan.
=---

B.Farme

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by B.Farme » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 02:59:07


Larry, I have to agree, whatever the decision is about rules, or
lack of them, is OK by me.  Problem seems to be that an
agreement cannot be reached by a majority, & Eldred really
doesn't want to be the "cop" (I don't blame him, I wouldn't want
it either), so I nominate John for the job.      ;o)
He has done as much, if not more, as Eldred, Phil, & Ed have
done, & if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place.
John & Dave seem to be the ones who show up most often, so maybe
they should get together w/ Eldred & just throw together some
rules, allow John to be the "cop" (he seems to be the only
person who will do it), & get back to racing.

Just my 2c worth.

Oh, I will be try to be at the reg chat room around 4 est, so if
anyone shows up, maybe we can use the ras server & race a
little.  With my luck, we'll choose a track I haven't practiced
for a while...  oh well.    ;o)

Brian

Jan Verschuere

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 03:03:42

ahem... <cough>

Jan.
=---

Bob

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Bob » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 04:35:12

My point exactly.  Maybe it's time.  <VBG>


> We aren't a League :)

> -Larry



> > Gentlemen,

> > I had submitted my car file some time ago intending to participate in
the
> > RASCAR races, but just never got the chance to do it due to moving into
a
> > new home and being swamped with "honey do" lists :-)  Therefore, you can
> > certainly take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, or ignore it
> all
> > together, but I'm going to say it anyway.

> > First of all I definitely think you need some rules, and IMHO, in
addition
> > to the standard ones, No racing back to the yellow is one that should be
> > included. - This just seems so elementary to me.  If there's a yellow
> flag,
> > that means there is trouble on the track somewhere.  If you're racing
back
> > to the yellow, you stand a good chance of plowing into that trouble.
If,
> on
> > the other hand, everyone just tries to hold their current position, and
> > begins to gradually slow down, your chances of seeing and avoiding a
> problem
> > are increased.

> > Points - I would recommend running for points, and with a predetermined
> > schedule, preferably based on the real WC schedule so that everyone has
> done
> > at least some practicing.  The big plus on running for points is that
most
> > drivers are less likely to take borderline foolish chances if they are
> > running for overall season points.

> > Strikes - If a driver screws up, then he should be issued a strike.
After
> a
> > certain number of strikes, then points should be deducted, followed by
> > possible race suspensions, and then expulsion from the league.

> > Not to toot my own horn, because it has little to do with me, and
> everything
> > to do with the members, but I have been directing a league on Saturday
> > mornings going on 3 years now.  In that time I've only had to remove two
> > drivers, one because his skill just wasn't up to par with the majority
of
> > the other drivers, and the other one was due to a verbal abuse
situation.
> > We have a wide range of driver skills, all the way from some very fast
> > drivers that are competing in Nim's VRW series, all the way down to
> > slowpokes like me.

> > I am also a long time member of  Tim Wortman's NASS online league, and
> have
> > learned from he and Scott Troxler just what it means to be a part of a
> well
> > managed league, and still have a lot of fun racing and making good
> friends.

> > I personally really think you gentlemen have a good group of drivers
here
> in
> > RASCAR, and think things would only improve with a little more structure
> and
> > discipline.

> > Okay, I've said my piece.  Excuse me while I put on my flame retardant
> suit
> > :-)

> > Bob




> > <edwins[

> > > >First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want
> > anyone
> > > >to "work" any harder / more than they allready are...  I am very
> thankful
> > > >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take
> part
> > in
> > > >them.  Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par
with
> > the
> > > >likes of Rob Walker.  A very friendly person that goes to great
lenghts
> > to
> > > >lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it.  He might not be the
fastest
> > > >driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope
:-)

> > > Thanks for the kind words.

> > > >RASCAR - STATISTICS:

> > > >- During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps
> > > >- Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7%
of
> > all
> > > >the laps.
> > > >- We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only
averaged
> 10
> > > >green laps between each yellow.
> > > >- Average no. of yellows pr. race :         8.83
> > > >- Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race:  32.83

> > > >I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a
> > incident
> > > >as follows: when a car hit another car of object  before regaingin
> > control -
> > > >that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point
> > before
> > > >the driver regained control os the car..  Meaning that if 'driver X'
> spun
> > > >and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit
one
> > car -
> > > >regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the
> > track -
> > > >that would count as two seperate incident.   Also - if 1 car hit 2
> > others -
> > > >that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single
incident..
> > But
> > > >if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single
> > incidents....
> > > >get it?
> > > >Multiple "scores"  is also possible - a car spining by itselft and
then
> > > >collection another driver, got "scored" for both..

> > > >Looking thru all the incidents I found the following...

> > > >- Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80  (13)

> > > Way too many.  As John(and others) said, maybe we SHOULD eliminate
> racing
> > back
> > > to yellow.

> > > >- Incidents occuring during pace-laps :                          37
> (6)

> > > Now this is ridiculous.  Even though I've done it once, I *still* say
> it's
> > > stupid to have an incident under caution.  The 2 main causes of this
are
> > > probably (1)someone futzing around through the function screen
> > keys(figuring
> > > pit strategy, etc. and (2)the accordion effect as people can't
maintain
> > even
> > > seperation.  I don't know how to solve #1.  Some people don't have
> enough
> > > buttons on their wheel, and the keyboard is awkward to reach.  That's
> what
> > > caused *my* ***up... :-(
> > > If people would STFU during cautions, #2 shouldn't happen as often.
> Quit
> > > chatting, and you won't be varying your speed all over the place.

> > > >- Accidents occuring on starts/restarts:                          17
> (6)
> > > >- Accidents caused by warping:                                      2
> > (9)
> > > >- Accidents involving a single car:
42

> > > Practice.  But, I've heard that the car gets VERY loose after you tear
> up
> > the
> > > rear of it.  Some of those single incidents may be cause by existing
> > damage.

> > > >- Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze:        6
> > > >- Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] :           33 (3)

> > > Not much you can do about these that I can easily think of...  I
wonder
> if
> > > other leagues keep stats on their incidents?
> > > Good grief, Man - don't you have a life?!? :-)
> > > I certainly wouldn't have had the patience to go through all this.
> > Thanks!

> > > Eldred
> > > --
> > > Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> > > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> > > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Larr

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Larr » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 06:09:53

RAS server sounds good to me.

-Larry




> > I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess...

> > We are NOT racing tomorrow.

> > That is the only thing that has come out of this.  I could
> care less about
> > rules.  I will follow whatever is posted.  It doesn't matter
> to me.

> > What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on Saturdays,
> and that is not
> > going to happen tomorrow.

> > That's what it all boils down to.

> > Now, before all this started if Eldred would have posted on
> Sunday that he
> > needs to take a break, and there won't be any races for a few
> weeks, I'd say
> > Good for you Eldred!  Thanks for your efforts, and you deserve
> the time off!

> > But that's not the way this came about.

> > But he still deserves thanks and a break :)

> > -Larry

> Larry, I have to agree, whatever the decision is about rules, or
> lack of them, is OK by me.  Problem seems to be that an
> agreement cannot be reached by a majority, & Eldred really
> doesn't want to be the "cop" (I don't blame him, I wouldn't want
> it either), so I nominate John for the job.      ;o)
> He has done as much, if not more, as Eldred, Phil, & Ed have
> done, & if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place.
> John & Dave seem to be the ones who show up most often, so maybe
> they should get together w/ Eldred & just throw together some
> rules, allow John to be the "cop" (he seems to be the only
> person who will do it), & get back to racing.

> Just my 2c worth.

> Oh, I will be try to be at the reg chat room around 4 est, so if
> anyone shows up, maybe we can use the ras server & race a
> little.  With my luck, we'll choose a track I haven't practiced
> for a while...  oh well.    ;o)

> Brian

B.Farme

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by B.Farme » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 06:15:46



Then again... maybe it was Jan's .

;o)

Brian

David G Fishe

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by David G Fishe » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 07:57:07

I haven't seen that server up on Sierra now for the last couple of days. :-)
Time to put a call out to jason.

David G Fisher


> RAS server sounds good to me.

> -Larry





> > > I have precisely ONE problem with this whole mess...

> > > We are NOT racing tomorrow.

> > > That is the only thing that has come out of this.  I could
> > care less about
> > > rules.  I will follow whatever is posted.  It doesn't matter
> > to me.

> > > What matters to me is I ENJOYED racing at 4pm on Saturdays,
> > and that is not
> > > going to happen tomorrow.

> > > That's what it all boils down to.

> > > Now, before all this started if Eldred would have posted on
> > Sunday that he
> > > needs to take a break, and there won't be any races for a few
> > weeks, I'd say
> > > Good for you Eldred!  Thanks for your efforts, and you deserve
> > the time off!

> > > But that's not the way this came about.

> > > But he still deserves thanks and a break :)

> > > -Larry

> > Larry, I have to agree, whatever the decision is about rules, or
> > lack of them, is OK by me.  Problem seems to be that an
> > agreement cannot be reached by a majority, & Eldred really
> > doesn't want to be the "cop" (I don't blame him, I wouldn't want
> > it either), so I nominate John for the job.      ;o)
> > He has done as much, if not more, as Eldred, Phil, & Ed have
> > done, & if memory serves, it was DGF's idea in the 1st place.
> > John & Dave seem to be the ones who show up most often, so maybe
> > they should get together w/ Eldred & just throw together some
> > rules, allow John to be the "cop" (he seems to be the only
> > person who will do it), & get back to racing.

> > Just my 2c worth.

> > Oh, I will be try to be at the reg chat room around 4 est, so if
> > anyone shows up, maybe we can use the ras server & race a
> > little.  With my luck, we'll choose a track I haven't practiced
> > for a while...  oh well.    ;o)

> > Brian

David G Fishe

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by David G Fishe » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 08:08:18

Actually, I think I do get the credit/blame for planting the seed that
started this mess. :-o

I put the idea out and rented a server with a date/time set up for an r.a.s.
race, but then Eldred offered to host if he could get a copy of the game.

David G Fisher


Eldre

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Eldre » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 08:34:24



>We aren't a League :)

Yes, we ARE.  We just haven't RUN it like one.  Blame me for the current
disorganized nature of the competition.  That *will* change in the future...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Jan Verschuere

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Jan Verschuere » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 08:54:06

True... share? ;-)

Jan.
=---

David G Fishe

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by David G Fishe » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:17:35


You, Eldred, John, and Phil have done a hell of a lot more than me.

.01% of the blame is more than enough for me. :-)

David G Fisher

Eldre

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Eldre » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 09:23:02



>Actually, I think I do get the credit/blame for planting the seed that
>started this mess. :-o

>I put the idea out and rented a server with a date/time set up for an r.a.s.
>race, but then Eldred offered to host if he could get a copy of the game.

Jan asked me when I was going to run full-length races for N2002 like I did for
GPL. You offered to host because I declined - I didn't have the program at the
time...:-)

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

Brian Oste

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by Brian Oste » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:09:14

Eldred, since you run the thing you probably take a lot of the posts
more personally than you should.  I can't speak for everyone else, but
I quite frankly did not find any problems with the current format.  I
honestly did not think there was a problem to be fixed.  We show up,
we race, sometimes we wreck and then we discuss the next week.  Last
time I checked they were still wrecking in the REAL NASCAR races.  

I don't really think it is all that disorganized.  I always know what
track is going to be run, I know when it is going to be run, and
basically the same people show up every week.  Results and replays are
posted on the web, car numbers and files are assigned and
distributed... hell it seems pretty damned organized to me.

But I'm flexible, I'll go along with what everyone else wants to do.

BTW, if Eldred's server is not going to be up this weekend (although I
did not see the actual announcement I take from the discussion it is
taking a vacation) all we have to do is get one of us to become boss
of one of the Papy Open servers, set yellows on, 40% race, select a
track that ISN'T Daytona or Dega and it will pretty much guarantee
that no one but us will race (this is a joke, but not to far form the
truth).

Brian Oster




>>We aren't a League :)

>Yes, we ARE.  We just haven't RUN it like one.  Blame me for the current
>disorganized nature of the competition.  That *will* change in the future...

>Eldred

David G Fishe

RASCAR: More rules "crap".....

by David G Fishe » Sun, 28 Jul 2002 10:19:51


That pretty much sums up how I've felt all along too.

There seems to be a lot of servers that aren't being used at the time we
race. Hopefully we can find one. We'll have to try and set the limit to
equal whatever we have in the lobby before we join up.

David G Fisher


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