rec.autos.simulators

> Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with
> regards RASCAR here lately....  ;-)   I think it's time to put the facts
> straight before I go away....

> First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want anyone
> to "work" any harder / more than they allready are...  I am very thankful
> that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take part
in
> them.  Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with the
> likes of Rob Walker.  A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts to
> lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it.  He might not be the fastest
> driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-)

> I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans on
> putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this.  Like Eldred
> stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new....  Infact I wrote those
> [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time - I've not
> been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion...    I told
Eldred
> I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all
surfaced
> now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that
> 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story.

> Okey... let's move on...

> I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the
> server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes I
can
> use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new or to
> understand why it went wrong.....  Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe 4
hours
> ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the
highlights
> from the race....   so that those with lesser connections might be able to
> see some of the serverside too..
> I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from watching
> these....  but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet...  Okey so I've
> only posted two races  (I got Pocono here too - but never posted it) - but
> nonetheless - there's atleast  a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that deserve
a
> remark or two..

> Anyway, back to this rulebook business.....  [here he go again!] :-)
> It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set rules
and
> how simply we could enforce them....
> There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays -  (although I
> always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we can
make
> this work without much work at all.  What is needed though is that we go
> away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch shouldnt
> be a problem for drivers anyway...
> If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that
> something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely...
> Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to do
is
> ask...
> The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can join
the
> races or more importantly - who can't!

> What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled - by
> everyone!
> So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to tell
him
> or tell *on* him...   Meaning that if some jump the start or pass "under
> yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First time
> will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could then
> either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow....  should
he
> still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If  we to
> make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so easily...

> Penalties might sound harsh.....  but IMO they are needed to get the
message
> thru to people..  The whole point here is to make people aware or the
rules
> and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who has
> "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another....  if he
> does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face the
> penalty for it...
> The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I am
sure
> we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that
'driver
> X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge what
kind
> of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats needed.  The
> bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick by the
> rules...  He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he can
just
> as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any penalties
or
> warnings - problem solved!  It really should not be necessary to kick or
ban
> any drivers at all.....  The sole point here is to make drivers aware of
the
> rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it.... Why
is
> that?, you say - ?

> Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more then 1
> driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell....  Should
he
> decide not to tell - then it's his loss....

> So what types of rules do we need then??????
> Well...  I've made my suggestions heard.....  although not all of 'em are
> equally important to me....  Some of you seem to think of every reason
there
> possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing -
instead
> of at least be willing to give it a try....  It can't hurt to try - can
> it???

> Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought I've
> never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the exception of
> at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not....
> Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do....  But atleast
> turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is along side
> you....

> What rules we should have is up to us all...  all I'm interrested in is
> better - cleaner and more "safe" racing...  I want to have fun and enjoy
the
> racing - just like everyone else...

> I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight on starts
and
> I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow....   -  those are my
> views...  what get's decided is up to you guys now...  I'm leaving for
> Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch probably
> means that by the time I get back - something has been decided...  either
by
> you  or by Eldred.

> Before I go though....  I would like offer some insight to our
> "problem-areas"...
> Over the last few days - I've spendt 10+ hours or so reviewing the server
> replays from the last 12 RASCAR races.....  and seeing that the Americans
> are so fond of statistics - I thought I might share this with you guys...
> I've gathered this information from raced we run on Eldred server...  Only
> oval races with yellows on has been reviewed so this exclude Sears, The
Glen
> and the last race at Pocono... I hope this information will be an
eyeopener
> for some of you guys and that it will be of help when deciding upon whats
> needed to be done...  As you see - things are not as good as some might
> think.. IMO.

> As with all things there's probably a sampling error of a few precent
> here... but I think and hope it's not more than 3-5%

> RASCAR - STATISTICS:

> - During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps
> - Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of
all
> the laps.
> - We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged 10
> green laps between each yellow.
> - Average no. of yellows pr. race :         8.83
> - Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race:  32.83

> I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a incident
> as follows: when a car hit another car of object  before regaingin
control -
> that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point before

> We don't often agree....but on this matter I would be 100% in agreement
with
> you.

> I don't even run in the RASCAR events, but I would thank you for the
obvious
> extensive work you have taken to review race replays....heck, even to
write
> the long and well thought out  post you made tonight.  I'm also sure it
was
> not totally an easy post for you to write....and you probably have better
> things to do just before leaving for a long trip.

> Racing of any kind, without even a simple set of rules....is not racing,
> IMHO.  Its just screwing around.  Even..."Friday Night Destruction Derby"
> races.....mayhem as they are.....have rules.

> The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of your bunch.
You
> can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if you let
> anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing in N2K2.
> Heck....some kid who wonders into RAS, just bought the "game"
> yesterday....could enter (and ruin) a race.  It is also a polite way to
> "kick somebody out"....and keep them out.....of future events.

> The proponents say, "We just want fun races....without all the hassles of
> league racing rules."  Well, nothing in my mind is fun about what you guys
> have been doing on Saturdays.  I can race in pickup racing on the Sierra
> servers if that's what I look for in "fun" racing.  I don't.  And, I don't
> think most of the better/experienced drivers in this community enjoy that
> kind of racing either.  But, you want to have events where experienced and
> inexperienced sim racers can mingle on the track in competition.....learn
> some stuff....without the pressure of season points championships and so
> forth.....why does having a simple set of rules preclude that?  It
> doesn't....obviously.

> Have a good trip.  Hope this works out for you guys.

> Regards,

> Tom

> "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message
> news:txI%8.2481$Py1.50423@news2.ulv.nextra.no...
> > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It
took
> me
> > quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look thru
> > it.... you might learn something! :-)

> > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything" with
> > regards RASCAR here lately....  ;-)   I think it's time to put the facts
> > straight before I go away....

> > First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want
anyone
> > to "work" any harder / more than they allready are...  I am very
thankful
> > that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take
part
> in
> > them.  Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with
the
> > likes of Rob Walker.  A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts
to
> > lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it.  He might not be the fastest
> > driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-)

> > I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans on
> > putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this.  Like Eldred
> > stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new....  Infact I wrote those
> > [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time - I've
not
> > been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion...    I told
> Eldred
> > I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all
> surfaced
> > now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that
> > 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story.

> > Okey... let's move on...

> > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the
> > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes I
> can
> > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new or
to
> > understand why it went wrong.....  Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe 4
> hours
> > ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the
> highlights
> > from the race....   so that those with lesser connections might be able
to
> > see some of the serverside too..
> > I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from watching
> > these....  but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet...  Okey so I've
> > only posted two races  (I got Pocono here too - but never posted it) -
but
> > nonetheless - there's atleast  a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that
deserve
> a
> > remark or two..

> > Anyway, back to this rulebook business.....  [here he go again!] :-)
> > It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set rules
> and
> > how simply we could enforce them....
> > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays -  (although
I
> > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we can
> make
> > this work without much work at all.  What is needed though is that we go
> > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch
shouldnt
> > be a problem for drivers anyway...
> > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that
> > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less regularely...
> > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to do
> is
> > ask...
> > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can join
> the
> > races or more importantly - who can't!

> > What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled - by
> > everyone!
> > So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to tell
> him
> > or tell *on* him...   Meaning that if some jump the start or pass "under
> > yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First tim
e
> > will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could then
> > either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow....
should
> he
> > still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If  we
to
> > make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so
easily...

> > Penalties might sound harsh.....  but IMO they are needed to get the
> message
> > thru to people..  The whole point here is to make people aware or the
> rules
> > and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who has
> > "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another....  if
he
> > does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face the
> > penalty for it...
> > The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I am
> sure
> > we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that
> 'driver
> > X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge what
> kind
> > of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats needed.
The
> > bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick by
the
> > rules...  He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he can
> just
> > as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any
penalties
> or
> > warnings - problem solved!  It really should not be necessary to kick or
> ban
> > any drivers at all.....  The sole point here is to make drivers aware of
> the
> > rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it.... Why
> is
> > that?, you say - ?

> > Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more then
1
> > driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell....  Should
> he
> > decide not to tell - then it's his loss....

> > So what types of rules do we need then??????
> > Well...  I've made my suggestions heard.....  although not all of 'em
are
> > equally important to me....  Some of you seem to think of every reason
> there
> > possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing -
> instead
> > of at least be willing to give it a try....  It can't hurt to try - can
> > it???

> > Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought
I've
> > never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the exception
of
> > at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not....
> > Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do....  But atleast
> > turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is along
side
> > you....

> > What rules we should have is up to us all...  all I'm interrested in is
> > better - cleaner and more "safe" racing...  I want to have fun and enjoy
> the
> > racing - just like everyone else...

> > I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight on starts
> and
> > I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow....   -  those are my
> > views...  what get's decided is up to you guys now...  I'm leaving for
> > Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch
probably
> > means that by the time I get back - something has been decided...
either
> by
> > you  or by Eldred.

> > Before I go though....  I would like offer some insight to our
> > "problem-areas"...
> > Over the last few days - I've spendt 10+ hours or so reviewing the
server
> > replays from the last 12 RASCAR races.....  and seeing that the
Americans
> > are so fond of statistics - I thought I might share this with you
guys...
> > I've gathered this information from raced we run on Eldred server...
Only
> > oval races with yellows on has been reviewed so this exclude Sears, The
> Glen
> > and the last race at Pocono... I hope this information will be an
> eyeopener
> > for some of you guys and that it will be of help when deciding upon
whats
> > needed to be done...  As you see - things are not as good as some might
> > think.. IMO.

> > As with all things there's probably a sampling

> Have you actually RUN in our Races?

> What are all these 'problems' you are talking about that don't make them
> fun?

> I've been in half a dozen races or so, and I have NO complaints about ANY
of
> them.

> -Larry

> "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> news:PnJ%8.633265$352.134798@sccrnsc02...
> > Ed...

> > We don't often agree....but on this matter I would be 100% in agreement
> with
> > you.

> > I don't even run in the RASCAR events, but I would thank you for the
> obvious
> > extensive work you have taken to review race replays....heck, even to
> write
> > the long and well thought out  post you made tonight.  I'm also sure it
> was
> > not totally an easy post for you to write....and you probably have
better
> > things to do just before leaving for a long trip.

> > Racing of any kind, without even a simple set of rules....is not racing,
> > IMHO.  Its just screwing around.  Even..."Friday Night Destruction
Derby"
> > races.....mayhem as they are.....have rules.

> > The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of your bunch.
> You
> > can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if you let
> > anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing in N2K2.
> > Heck....some kid who wonders into RAS, just bought the "game"
> > yesterday....could enter (and ruin) a race.  It is also a polite way to
> > "kick somebody out"....and keep them out.....of future events.

> > The proponents say, "We just want fun races....without all the hassles
of
> > league racing rules."  Well, nothing in my mind is fun about what you
guys
> > have been doing on Saturdays.  I can race in pickup racing on the Sierra
> > servers if that's what I look for in "fun" racing.  I don't.  And, I
don't
> > think most of the better/experienced drivers in this community enjoy
that
> > kind of racing either.  But, you want to have events where experienced
and
> > inexperienced sim racers can mingle on the track in

> > Have a good trip.  Hope this works out for you guys.

> > Regards,

> > Tom

> > "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message
> > news:txI%8.2481$Py1.50423@news2.ulv.nextra.no...
> > > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It
> took
> > me
> > > quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look
thru
> > > it.... you might learn something! :-)

> > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything"
with
> > > regards RASCAR here lately....  ;-)   I think it's time to put the
facts
> > > straight before I go away....

> > > First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want
> anyone
> > > to "work" any harder / more than they allready are...  I am very
> thankful
> > > that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take
> part
> > in
> > > them.  Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with
> the
> > > likes of Rob Walker.  A very friendly person that goes to great
lenghts
> to
> > > lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it.  He might not be the
fastest
> > > driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope
:-)

> > > I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans on
> > > putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this.  Like
Eldred
> > > stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new....  Infact I wrote those
> > > [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time - I've
> not
> > > been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion...    I told
> > Eldred
> > > I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all
> > surfaced
> > > now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that
> > > 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story.

> > > Okey... let's move on...

> > > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download the
> > > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in... sometimes
I
> > can
> > > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new
or
> to
> > > understand why it went wrong.....  Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe 4
> > hours
> > > ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the
> > highlights
> > > from the race....   so that those with lesser connections might be
able
> to
> > > see some of the serverside too..
> > > I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from
watching
> > > these....  but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet...  Okey so
I've
> > > only posted two races  (I got Pocono here too - but never posted it) -
> but
> > > nonetheless - there's atleast  a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that
> deserve
> > a
> > > remark or two..

> > > Anyway, back to this rulebook business.....  [here he go again!] :-)
> > > It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set
rules
> > and
> > > how simply we could enforce them....
> > > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays -
(although
> I
> > > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we
can
> > make
> > > this work without much work at all.  What is needed though is that we
go
> > > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch
> shouldnt
> > > be a problem for drivers anyway...
> > > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find that
> > > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less
regularely...
> > > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has to
do
> > is
> > > ask...
> > > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can
join
> > the
> > > races or more importantly - who can't!

> > > What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled -
by
> > > everyone!
> > > So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to
tell
> > him
> > > or tell *on* him...   Meaning that if some jump the start or pass
"under
> > > yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First
tim
> e
> > > will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could
then
> > > either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow....
> should
> > he
> > > still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If  we
> to
> > > make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so
> easily...

> > > Penalties might sound harsh.....  but IMO they are needed to get the
> > message
> > > thru to people..  The whole point here is to make people aware or the
> > rules
> > > and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who has
> > > "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another....  if
> he
> > > does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face
the
> > > penalty for it...
> > > The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I am
> > sure
> > > we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that
> > 'driver
> > > X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge
what
> > kind
> > > of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats needed.
> The
> > > bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick by
> the
> > > rules...  He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he can
> > just
> > > as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any
> penalties
> > or
> > > warnings - problem solved!  It really should not be necessary to kick
or
> > ban
> > > any drivers at all.....  The sole point here is to make drivers aware
of
> > the
> > > rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it....
Why
> > is
> > > that?, you say - ?

> > > Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more
then
> 1
> > > driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell....
Should
> > he
> > > decide not to tell - then it's his loss....

> > > So what types of rules do we need then??????
> > > Well...  I've made my suggestions heard.....  although not all of 'em
> are
> > > equally important to me....  Some of you seem to think of every reason
> > there
> > > possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing -
> > instead
> > > of at least be willing to give it a try....  It can't hurt to try -
can
> > > it???

> > > Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought
> I've
> > > never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the
exception
> of
> > > at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not....
> > > Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do....  But
atleast
> > > turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is along
> side
> > > you....

> > > What rules we should have is up to us all...  all I'm interrested in
is
> > > better - cleaner and more "safe" racing...  I want to have fun and
enjoy
> > the
> > > racing - just like everyone else...

> > > I do think we should have a no-passing until the back straight on
starts
> > and
> > > I *know* we should stop racing back to the yellow....   -  those are
my
> > > views...  what get's decided is up to you guys now...  I'm leaving for
> > > Brazil on friday morning and I'll be gone for 3 weeks.... whilch
> probably
> > > means that by the time I get back - something has been decided...
> either
> > by
> > > you  or by Eldred.

> > > Before I go though....  I would like offer some insight to our
> > > "problem-areas"...

> >First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want
anyone
> >to "work" any harder / more than they allready are...  I am very thankful
> >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take part
in
> >them.  Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with
the
> >likes of Rob Walker.  A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts
to
> >lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it.  He might not be the fastest
> >driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-)

> Thanks for the kind words.

> >RASCAR - STATISTICS:

> >- During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps
> >- Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of
all
> >the laps.
> >- We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged 10
> >green laps between each yellow.
> >- Average no. of yellows pr. race :         8.83
> >- Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race:  32.83

> >I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a
incident
> >as follows: when a car hit another car of object  before regaingin
control -
> >that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point
before
> >the driver regained control os the car..  Meaning that if 'driver X' spun
> >and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit one
car -
> >regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the
track -
> >that would count as two seperate incident.   Also - if 1 car hit 2
others -
> >that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident..
But
> >if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single
incidents....
> >get it?
> >Multiple "scores"  is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then
> >collection another driver, got "scored" for both..

> >Looking thru all the incidents I found the following...

> >- Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80  (13)

> Way too many.  As John(and others) said, maybe we SHOULD eliminate racing
back
> to yellow.

> >- Incidents occuring during pace-laps :                          37  (6)

> Now this is ridiculous.  Even though I've done it once, I *still* say it's
> stupid to have an incident under caution.  The 2 main causes of this are
> probably (1)someone futzing around through the function screen
keys(figuring
> pit strategy, etc. and (2)the accordion effect as people can't maintain
even
> seperation.  I don't know how to solve #1.  Some people don't have enough
> buttons on their wheel, and the keyboard is awkward to reach.  That's what
> caused *my* ***up... :-(
> If people would STFU during cautions, #2 shouldn't happen as often.  Quit
> chatting, and you won't be varying your speed all over the place.

> >- Accidents occuring on starts/restarts:                          17  (6)
> >- Accidents caused by warping:                                      2
(9)
> >- Accidents involving a single car:                                  42

> Practice.  But, I've heard that the car gets VERY loose after you tear up
the
> rear of it.  Some of those single incidents may be cause by existing
damage.

> >- Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze:        6
> >- Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] :           33 (3)

> Not much you can do about these that I can easily think of...  I wonder if
> other leagues keep stats on their incidents?
> Good grief, Man - don't you have a life?!? :-)
> I certainly wouldn't have had the patience to go through all this.
Thanks!

> Eldred
> --
> Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> I had submitted my car file some time ago intending to participate in the
> RASCAR races, but just never got the chance to do it due to moving into a
> new home and being swamped with "honey do" lists :-)  Therefore, you can
> certainly take what I'm about to say with a grain of salt, or ignore it
all
> together, but I'm going to say it anyway.

> First of all I definitely think you need some rules, and IMHO, in addition
> to the standard ones, No racing back to the yellow is one that should be
> included. - This just seems so elementary to me.  If there's a yellow
flag,
> that means there is trouble on the track somewhere.  If you're racing back
> to the yellow, you stand a good chance of plowing into that trouble.  If,
on
> the other hand, everyone just tries to hold their current position, and
> begins to gradually slow down, your chances of seeing and avoiding a
problem
> are increased.

> Points - I would recommend running for points, and with a predetermined
> schedule, preferably based on the real WC schedule so that everyone has
done
> at least some practicing.  The big plus on running for points is that most
> drivers are less likely to take borderline foolish chances if they are
> running for overall season points.

> Strikes - If a driver screws up, then he should be issued a strike.  After
a
> certain number of strikes, then points should be deducted, followed by
> possible race suspensions, and then expulsion from the league.

> Not to toot my own horn, because it has little to do with me, and
everything
> to do with the members, but I have been directing a league on Saturday
> mornings going on 3 years now.  In that time I've only had to remove two
> drivers, one because his skill just wasn't up to par with the majority of
> the other drivers, and the other one was due to a verbal abuse situation.
> We have a wide range of driver skills, all the way from some very fast
> drivers that are competing in Nim's VRW series, all the way down to
> slowpokes like me.

> I am also a long time member of  Tim Wortman's NASS online league, and
have
> learned from he and Scott Troxler just what it means to be a part of a
well
> managed league, and still have a lot of fun racing and making good
friends.

> I personally really think you gentlemen have a good group of drivers here
in
> RASCAR, and think things would only improve with a little more structure
and
> discipline.

> Okay, I've said my piece.  Excuse me while I put on my flame retardant
suit
> :-)

> Bob

> <edwins[

> > >First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want
> anyone
> > >to "work" any harder / more than they allready are...  I am very
thankful
> > >that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take
part
> in
> > >them.  Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par with
> the
> > >likes of Rob Walker.  A very friendly person that goes to great lenghts
> to
> > >lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it.  He might not be the fastest
> > >driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope :-)

> > Thanks for the kind words.

> > >RASCAR - STATISTICS:

> > >- During the last 12 oval races we've run 1101 laps
> > >- Of these laps 394 were run behind the pacecar - thats's over 35.7% of
> all
> > >the laps.
> > >- We've had 106 cautions, and if I got this correct - we only averaged
10
> > >green laps between each yellow.
> > >- Average no. of yellows pr. race :         8.83
> > >- Average no. of cautionlaps pr. race:  32.83

> > >I've looked at the incidents we 've had and I decided to define a
> incident
> > >as follows: when a car hit another car of object  before regaingin
> control -
> > >that was one incident... No car "scored" more than 1 incident point
> before
> > >the driver regained control os the car..  Meaning that if 'driver X'
spun
> > >and hit 2 cars - that counts as one incident. OTOH, if he spun hit one
> car -
> > >regained *control* of the car and then hit another car 150m down the
> track -
> > >that would count as two seperate incident.   Also - if 1 car hit 2
> others -
> > >that again spun into 2 others - that would count as 1 single incident..
> But
> > >if 2 carshed into the same car(s) that would count as 2 single
> incidents....
> > >get it?
> > >Multiple "scores"  is also possible - a car spining by itselft and then
> > >collection another driver, got "scored" for both..

> > >Looking thru all the incidents I found the following...

> > >- Incidents while 'racing back to the yellow' : incredibly 80  (13)

> > Way too many.  As John(and others) said, maybe we SHOULD eliminate
racing
> back
> > to yellow.

> > >- Incidents occuring during pace-laps :                          37
(6)

> > Now this is ridiculous.  Even though I've done it once, I *still* say
it's
> > stupid to have an incident under caution.  The 2 main causes of this are
> > probably (1)someone futzing around through the function screen
> keys(figuring
> > pit strategy, etc. and (2)the accordion effect as people can't maintain
> even
> > seperation.  I don't know how to solve #1.  Some people don't have
enough
> > buttons on their wheel, and the keyboard is awkward to reach.  That's
what
> > caused *my* ***up... :-(
> > If people would STFU during cautions, #2 shouldn't happen as often.
Quit
> > chatting, and you won't be varying your speed all over the place.

> > >- Accidents occuring on starts/restarts:                          17
(6)
> > >- Accidents caused by warping:                                      2
> (9)
> > >- Accidents involving a single car:                                  42

> > Practice.  But, I've heard that the car gets VERY loose after you tear
up
> the
> > rear of it.  Some of those single incidents may be cause by existing
> damage.

> > >- Accidents caused by other reasons such as freeze:        6
> > >- Cars being 'collected' by other [spinning cars] :           33 (3)

> > Not much you can do about these that I can easily think of...  I wonder
if
> > other leagues keep stats on their incidents?
> > Good grief, Man - don't you have a life?!? :-)
> > I certainly wouldn't have had the patience to go through all this.
> Thanks!

> > Eldred
> > --
> > Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
> > My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

> > Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

> Sorry for not making that clearer.

> TP

> "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:12S%8.132812$%%2.5743170@news2.east.cox.net...
> > Tom,

> > Have you actually RUN in our Races?

> > What are all these 'problems' you are talking about that don't make them
> > fun?

> > I've been in half a dozen races or so, and I have NO complaints about
ANY
> of
> > them.

> > -Larry

> > "Tom Pabst" <tmpa...@attbi.com> wrote in message
> > news:PnJ%8.633265$352.134798@sccrnsc02...
> > > Ed...

> > > We don't often agree....but on this matter I would be 100% in
agreement
> > with
> > > you.

> > > I don't even run in the RASCAR events, but I would thank you for the
> > obvious
> > > extensive work you have taken to review race replays....heck, even to
> > write
> > > the long and well thought out  post you made tonight.  I'm also sure
it
> > was
> > > not totally an easy post for you to write....and you probably have
> better
> > > things to do just before leaving for a long trip.

> > > Racing of any kind, without even a simple set of rules....is not
racing,
> > > IMHO.  Its just screwing around.  Even..."Friday Night Destruction
> Derby"
> > > races.....mayhem as they are.....have rules.

> > > The "invitation list" only races.....idea....is the best of your
bunch.
> > You
> > > can not expect to have something of an orderly racing event...if you
let
> > > anyone join the races with no regard to their experience racing in
N2K2.
> > > Heck....some kid who wonders into RAS, just bought the "game"
> > > yesterday....could enter (and ruin) a race.  It is also a polite way
to
> > > "kick somebody out"....and keep them out.....of future events.

> > > The proponents say, "We just want fun races....without all the hassles
> of
> > > league racing rules."  Well, nothing in my mind is fun about what you
> guys
> > > have been doing on Saturdays.  I can race in pickup racing on the
Sierra
> > > servers if that's what I look for in "fun" racing.  I don't.  And, I
> don't
> > > think most of the better/experienced drivers in this community enjoy
> that
> > > kind of racing either.  But, you want to have events where experienced
> and
> > > inexperienced sim racers can mingle on the track in
> competition.....learn
> > > some stuff....without the pressure of season points championships and
so
> > > forth.....why does having a simple set of rules preclude that?  It
> > > doesn't....obviously.

> > > Have a good trip.  Hope this works out for you guys.

> > > Regards,

> > > Tom

> > > "Ed Solheim" <edwins[ REMOVE ]@[ THIS ].no> wrote in message
> > > news:txI%8.2481$Py1.50423@news2.ulv.nextra.no...
> > > > Note: this post might be a bit longer than it should have been... It
> > took
> > > me
> > > > quite sometime to do this, so please do at least take a quick look
> thru
> > > > it.... you might learn something! :-)

> > > > Seeing I'm the one being "blamed" for ruining "all and everything"
> with
> > > > regards RASCAR here lately....  ;-)   I think it's time to put the
> facts
> > > > straight before I go away....

> > > > First and foremost - I do *not* want to ruin RASCAR - nor do I want
> > anyone
> > > > to "work" any harder / more than they allready are...  I am very
> > thankful
> > > > that Eldred host these races and I'm honored the he allow me to take
> > part
> > > in
> > > > them.  Eldred is what I woud call as a 'Gentlemen-racer' - on par
with
> > the
> > > > likes of Rob Walker.  A very friendly person that goes to great
> lenghts
> > to
> > > > lend a hand - simply because he enjoys it.  He might not be the
> fastest
> > > > driver out there, but he *is* out there - enjoying himself - I hope
> :-)

> > > > I actually took it for granted that Eldred knew that I had no plans
on
> > > > putting more load on him or to in anyway ruin any of this.  Like
> Eldred
> > > > stated - this 'rulebook' issue is not new....  Infact I wrote those
> > > > [*proposed*] rules almost a month ago, but due to lack of time -
I've
> > not
> > > > been able to particeipate in the races or the discussion...    I
told
> > > Eldred
> > > > I'd have a look at this some months ago... and the fact that it all
> > > surfaced
> > > > now is just a coincident...- well almost as there was something that
> > > > 'triggered' me to bring it up again, but that's another story.

> > > > Okey... let's move on...

> > > > I dont know if common for you guys - but I for one always download
the
> > > > server replay and review the races I've particeipated in...
sometimes
> I
> > > can
> > > > use an hour or so whatching the race - trying to learn something new
> or
> > to
> > > > understand why it went wrong.....  Sometimes I even spend 2-3 maybe
4
> > > hours
> > > > ('cause the damn replay-editor keep crashing on me!) editing the
> > > highlights
> > > > from the race....   so that those with lesser connections might be
> able
> > to
> > > > see some of the serverside too..
> > > > I also hoped that we - the drivers - could gain something from
> watching
> > > > these....  but it doesnt seemed to have helped much yet...  Okey so
> I've
> > > > only posted two races  (I got Pocono here too - but never posted
it) -
> > but
> > > > nonetheless - there's atleast  a few 'bonehead' moves in 'em. that
> > deserve
> > > a
> > > > remark or two..

> > > > Anyway, back to this rulebook business.....  [here he go again!] :-)
> > > > It might be that people misunderstand what I mean by having a set
> rules
> > > and
> > > > how simply we could enforce them....
> > > > There is no need for any post race scrutineering of replays -
> (although
> > I
> > > > always do this anyway...) nor is there any need for penalties... we
> can
> > > make
> > > > this work without much work at all.  What is needed though is that
we
> go
> > > > away from the open race format and over to a invite list - whilch
> > shouldnt
> > > > be a problem for drivers anyway...
> > > > If we look thru the races run so far i'm pretty sure you'll find
that
> > > > something close to 80% of the drivers attend more or less
> regularely...
> > > > Beside.. if a driver want to get his name on the list - all he has
to
> do
> > > is
> > > > ask...
> > > > The whole point with this list is that it's easy to control who can
> join
> > > the
> > > > races or more importantly - who can't!

> > > > What we need is a short set of rules that can be easily marshalled -
> by
> > > > everyone!
> > > > So whenever someone break a rule - it's up to his fellow drivers to
> tell
> > > him
> > > > or tell *on* him...   Meaning that if some jump the start or pass
> "under
> > > > yellow" you let him (and the rest of us) know you've seen it.. First
> tim
> > e
> > > > will be a warning, second and third time might be worse...we could
> then
> > > > either ask him to do a drive thru during the race/next yellow....
> > should
> > > he
> > > > still not get the message he might get kicked off the server... If
we
> > to
> > > > make 2 - 3 maybe 4 drivers 'race-bosses' this culd be solved so
> > easily...

> > > > Penalties might sound harsh.....  but IMO they are needed to get the
> > > message
> > > > thru to people..  The whole point here is to make people aware or
the
> > > rules
> > > > and see to it that they stick by 'em... Meaning that a driver who
has
> > > > "received" a warning once - should not need to receive another....
if
> > he
> > > > does - he clearly dont want to play by the rules and deserve to face
> the
> > > > penalty for it...
> > > > The point here is that it's up to us to monitor all of this - and I
am
> > > sure
> > > > we will notice if this 'get out of hand' Once we've heard/seen that
> > > 'driver
> > > > X' been told time and again; he cant to that - we can easily judge
> what
> > > kind
> > > > of driver this is and remove him from the invitelist if thats
needed.
> > The
> > > > bottom line here is that it's up to each and every driver to stick
by
> > the
> > > > rules...  He might accidentally pass someone he shouldn't - but he
can
> > > just
> > > > as easily "undo" the pass and fall behind again.... without any
> > penalties
> > > or
> > > > warnings - problem solved!  It really should not be necessary to
kick
> or
> > > ban
> > > > any drivers at all.....  The sole point here is to make drivers
aware
> of
> > > the
> > > > rules and that they cannot break them without anyone noticing it....
> Why
> > > is
> > > > that?, you say - ?

> > > > Well...put simply - the rules we need are for situations with more
> then
> > 1
> > > > driver so there's always an extra pair of eyes that can tell....
> Should
> > > he
> > > > decide not to tell - then it's his loss....

> > > > So what types of rules do we need then??????
> > > > Well...  I've made my suggestions heard.....  although not all of
'em
> > are
> > > > equally important to me....  Some of you seem to think of every
reason
> > > there
> > > > possibly could be as to why we cant or should't do or deny a thing -
> > > instead
> > > > of at least be willing to give it a try....  It can't hurt to try -
> can
> > > > it???

> > > > Okey, so forced cockpit view might not be that important - althought
> > I've
> > > > never used anything else myself - and I have never - with the
> exception
> > of
> > > > at Sears Point - had *any* problems with it - wrecked car or not....
> > > > Anyway if people want to race from the hood - please do....  But
> atleast
> > > > turn on the "interior" in your mirror so you know when a car is
along
> > side
> > > > you....

> > > > What rules we should have is up to us all...  all I'm interrested in
> is
> > > > better - cleaner