rec.autos.simulators

It has been my understanding that Papy never intended to use
the GPL physics in Nascar 2000. Nascar 2000 is to be a highly
modified remake of Nascar 2 with better most things.

Nascar 3 on the other hand is the complete rewrite sim from
Papy that will incorporate the GPL physics.

SO lets get this straight....

Nascar 2000 is a different product to Nascar 3.
Nascar 2000 = no GPL physics.
Nascar 3 = GPL physics.

What High Groove did have right is that it is a lack PC
horsepower that concerns Papy when it comes to the GPL physics
in the Nascar sim, so they have put Nascar 3 on hold till the
average PC is capable of running it. But at this stage Nascar
3 is still on with GPL physics.

Now for me personally GPL has moved me away from the N2 sim
because I find N2 physics so weak in comparison and that GPL
is the only sim to date that gives me the "feeling" that the
car has mass weight.
And that is where N2 lacks, so I eagerly await Nascar 3 ( even
though my PC will not be up to it as yet).

Having said that I will consider Nascar 2000 should it be a
marked improvement over  N2 as I would really like to get back
to the Offline racing I was involved in.

Take Care
Nigel Nichols
--

Redline Race Controls      

Nigel of Lakewood Motorsports
Nascar Coruba & Coke Chevy
Hamilton
New Zealand

Now, as I eluded to in my column, Papy isn't willing to take the risk of
releasing a NASCAR game based upon the GPL engine.  The NASCAR series is
their cash cow, and if they release a game that the average NASCAR fan can't
drive, it could be a financial disaster for them.

I thank you for reading the column and hope you find In the High Groove to
be entertaining.

Jeff Downey
GA-Sports

**** Posted from RemarQ - http://www.remarq.com - Discussions Start Here (tm) ****

The problem isn't that the game will be as hard as GPL. The problem is the
current PC technology, it just isn't good enough. Think about it... I have a
P2 300a, 64 MB RAM and a V2 and I don't have to try to race 19 cars, frame
rate becomes to low.... Imagine what a 40+ car Nascar field would do on your
PC...

MiX

NASCAR 2000 looks like a totally different game. Aside from the front end
menu that I saw (which will still be tweaked), the game is nothing like
NASCAR 2.

NASCAR 3 is still going to be released. My understanding is that it will
*NOT* use the GPL engine, but rather a whole new engine.

I also disagree with your logic here on Papy releasing their "cash cow".
If it is a cash cow, it wouldn't matter if they just released a big piece
of junk and threw a NASCAR label on it. It would still sell very well,
even if it was thrashed in this newsgroup.

You are right about the Daytona thing. The press kit I received said
NASCAR 3 all over it. Now, when I saw those screens and movies, I was
thinking NASCAR 2 with an updated engine.

I do have a caveat: I didn't actually play the game while I was there. I
can't really comment if the driving experience is the same or different.
However, based on the new 3d sounds, new graphics, new car modeling, new
pit crew, new AI, etc, I really can't say we're talking about the same
game as NASCAR 2.

says...

--
Dan Clarke
Managing Editor
Operation Sports
http://www.operationsports.com

% NASCAR 3 is still going to be released. My understanding is that it will
% *NOT* use the GPL engine, but rather a whole new engine.

This is in direct contradiction to what has been "officially" "leaked"
about NASCAR 3.  Do you care to expand on this?  Of course N3 will not
use the "GPL" engine since this engine models 1967 F1 cars.  However,
the physics engine used in GPL is (from my understanding), will still the
basis for NASCAR 3's physics engine.

% I also disagree with your logic here on Papy releasing their "cash cow".
% If it is a cash cow, it wouldn't matter if they just released a big piece
% of junk and threw a NASCAR label on it. It would still sell very well,
% even if it was thrashed in this newsgroup.

And how well is Jeff Gordon's NASCAR "junk" selling?  Or NASCAR
Revolution?

While the results are not scientific, the charts at Games Domain are
good indicators of a games popularity and thus sales.

NASCAR Racing 1 was on the top 100 chart for 101 weeks and peaked at 21.
NASCAR Racing 2 was on the chart for 23 weeks and peaked at 56.
NASCAR Revolution made the chart for 5 weeks and peaked at 66.

Revolution made its peak the 2nd week on the chart.  While N1 peaked
after almost 6 months on the chart.  N2 took about 3-1/2 months to peak.

While we are at it....  Grand Prix 2 was on the charts for 94 weeks,
peaking at #6 two months after entering the charts.  

Grand Prix Legends lived for 6 weeks on the chart with a peak of 84
about 1 month after entering the charts.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now they did not say they are using the GPL engine, nor did they say they
were not using this. I'm inferring from this quote that it is a whole new
engine. I could be wrong, or I could be right :).

Jeff Gordon's game is not an official NASCAR product. You do have me on N
Revolution. I do not have any sales figures I can use to refute or ratify
you there.

I disagree with you here.  The GD charts are based on Worldcharts and
people voting. Now, as much as I'd like to be the #1 website on
Worldcharts I really don't think people visit my site as often as MSNBC.
However, according to WC, OpSports is ranked higher than MSNBC.

I do understand what you're getting at here, and you have provided valid
points to my arguments and I respect that.

I was just trying to state that IMHO, NASCAR 2000 looks like a whole
different game than Nascar Racing 1999. Of course some profit motives
went into releasing the game this year--but I don't think this is the
sole reason. Papy has a pretty good relationship with the sim racer as
well as the general public. I don't think they would want to tarnish that
repuation.

Hope this helps.

--
Dan Clarke
Managing Editor
Operation Sports
http://www.operationsports.com

The Software industry realized a few years ago that if you put in a couple
of new features in a product and call it version 2 or 3 or 4 or 5
or....(Hmmm) most would pay for the newer version.  Microsoft is the King of
this type of abuse.  (But other caught up quickly)  Can anyone tell me what
major diff 'tween office 95' and 97'?  There are diffs but not $179 worth!
I think we will see this more and more until the consumers stand up and say
stop this nonsense. When you put out a new product then we will pay, until
then they should be free patches.

Just my penny and a half

Mitch Alatorre
naman TEN/NROS
Team Tachyon

I do agree with you that NASCAR 1999 was a lot like NASCAR 2. When you
see NASCAR 2000, you'll know it isn't the case this year.

You have a point about NASCAR 3. I didn't see it run on anything, so I
can't judge that point as it applies to NASCAR 3. We'll just have to wait
and see.

--
Dan Clarke
Managing Editor
Operation Sports
http://www.operationsports.com

Gunner

% Now they did not say they are using the GPL engine, nor did they say they
% were not using this. I'm inferring from this quote that it is a whole new
% engine. I could be wrong, or I could be right :).

Okay, I think it may just be a case of reading too much into too little.
But, then everyone here seems so hungry for any little tidbit, I can see
why we are reading between the lines.

% I do understand what you're getting at here, and you have provided valid
% points to my arguments and I respect that.

% I was just trying to state that IMHO, NASCAR 2000 looks like a whole
% different game than Nascar Racing 1999. Of course some profit motives
% went into releasing the game this year--but I don't think this is the
% sole reason. Papy has a pretty good relationship with the sim racer as
% well as the general public. I don't think they would want to tarnish that
% repuation.

I think this hits one of the nails squarely on the head.  Everyone is
quick to judge a product that hardly anyone outside of Papyrus knows
about (and those that do probably have an NDA).  I agree with you here.
I think that too many folks got fueled by the physics engine in GPL and
aren't willing or ready to give NASCAR2000 a chance.  This is not to say
that NASCAR2000 isn't a dressed up N2.  But, then again, I don't recall
folks bashing Papy too much for just dressing up ICR2 when they used the
same graphics/physics engine for N2.  

Sit back folks, enjoy GPL and wait until we have something concrete to
shoot at on the N2000 issue.  However, that doesn't mean you don't have
the right to express your concerns and wishes for a NASCAR (or CART) sim
based on the physics engine that gave birth to GPL.  Just do it based on
facts and not some mad *** X-File scenario....  (On second
thought, go ahead and expand on the *** themes, as it does make
for some interesting reading while we wait for GP3. <G>).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

At present it is clear from what has been publically announced that
N2000 and NASCAR Legends will be released using a seriously overhauled
(updated) N2 engine, and that NASCAR3 is somewhere on the horizon -
anything beyond that is speculation.

It would also *** sales of following products to a greater or
lesser degree depending upon how big a piece of junk it as. Cash cows
are generally much better if they can have cash-calf offspring. Single
generation short-term thinking is a convenient analogy but not a sound
basis for a business plan.

What is the difference between "new graphics" and "new car modelling"?
A new car model is essentially new graphics, but new car modelling
implies a different (more or less extensive) game engine, which would
require driving to evaluate. In terms of sales I think all of the
frills will most definitely help to sell more copies, far more than an
enhanced driving model (unfortunately). I would still like _very_ much
to see additions such as brake locking, realistic wheelspin and the
like otherwise I fear N2000 will feel as dead to me as N2 does when
set alongside GPL. Those are my personal desires though, and if it
makes more commercial sense to concentrate efforts elsewhere then I
can only hope that the money brought in will allow future products
(N3, CART?) to satisfy my requirements. That will of course depend
upon whether the "sim" market is big enough to make an out and out
simulation a viable commercial proposition - I very much doubt that.
For a long time I've thought that the only way to profitably make sims
is to follow the approach of GP2, F1RS etc and provide a product which
can appeal to the arcade fans and to the simulation fans. The drawback
of this of course is that if 75% of your sales come from arcade fans
and 75% of your development time goes into the sim side of the product
then there is a very simple choice which would make your profits look
much better. It also precludes the possibility of pricing the product
at a premium for the sim market, since then the arcade fans won't buy
it.

It's quite a tricky market to be in, and a market is always very
difficult to develop with only one supplier. It's a tough challenge
for Papyrus to carve out and develop the market, since with, for
example, the flight-sim market there are many companies bringing more
and more people into the genre. With racing-sims it's not as easy.

Cheers!
John

I can only tell you what the people at Papy told me. I don't know where
everyone in the ng gets their information. We got our information right
from the source.

Agreed.

Again, you have a valid point, but again, cash cow and quality are not
synonomous. Two words here: Deer Hunter.

Well, there are new graphics, and they used the term "modeling" as well.
It looked to me (my observations only) that the cars damage model was
different, meaning that hoods fly off, and so forth. Of course the game
requires driving to evaluate. We could get the game and many people will
say Dan what were you thinking? I doubt this will be the case, but I
didn't play the game, I saw it and talked with the developers. I think
most pepole will be happy with the result. 42 players on the internet is
very exciting!

--
Dan Clarke
Managing Editor
Operation Sports
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

    Gunner,

     I can't believe you said this. No company in their right mind would
release a product for sale,knowing that the vast majority of its customers
can't use it. Add to that just how many retailers would purchase it,knowing
that so few of their customers can run it on their computers. Unless the
product is sold to them on a guaranteed sales basis,very few companies would
even touch the product. After all,they have just so much funds allocated to
this category.

     1st of all,they will loose their shirts. The Bean counters would stop
production as soon as they see the projected sales vs. gross profit. And in
your example of 100 sales is better than none,the bottom line;net
profit,would certainly be in the red.

     Time and effort can be better utilized on projects that will produce
acceptable GP.

      What you and others are confusing is that this is a business to
them,not a game. They have to produce enough cash flow to pay
salaries,benefits,rent,light,etc.

      No one I know has purchased any hardware for sims that weren't
currently on the market. If you do,then perhaps they have nearly unlimited
funds to constantly upgrade. I don't.

      N2000 is a product that the majority of us can run and enjoy with our
current hardware. N3 will be refined,and finally released when the time is
right from strictly a business point of view.

Joel Willstein

I think we should be careful not to misuse the word "quality". If deer
hunter is the best game in it's class and satisfies the requirements
of it's market then it is by definition a good quality product
relative to what is required. This is somewhat different from
releasing a turkey and cashing in on it, since whether or not
something is a turkey is defined by the buying public's reaction. If
they react badly then the offspring are killed and your short-term
financial solution becomes a cyanide capsule.

I agree, and I'm sure many people (probably myself included) will be
delighted with the result. My only concern is that a precious few
facts are stated in the newsgroup, speculations then made, assumptions
sketched in and before long "facts" are born, definitions of reality
which are based upon a million assumptions. My intention was a reality
check, nothing more. That I meandered of onto what we in Scotland call
"a mazy", rambling on about this and that is more down to me than the
subject :-)

Cheers!
John

So if the shop is out of prime materials, they can sell second rate as
great quality?  Not having any good hunting games doesn't make Deer
Hunter any less amateurish and crappy.