On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 22:57:38 -0000, "Alexpez" <alex...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>trail braking does not involve staying on the gas....
>this is the big gpl myth as i see it....
>trail braking is just easing off the brake as you turn in....no throttle
>application whatsoever....
>in gpl you gain traction by keeping a little throttle on whilst trail
>braking...
>it aint accurate at all.
>pez
Pez,
You posted about this a couple of weeks ago adn I spent quite
some time replying to you, you said :
>pez wants a discussion, as pez loves GPL, its tought me alot, and im racing
>cars this year, dont want to learn bad habits from computer games.
But my post received no further comment. I posted it again as response
to another post on a similar subject, to which you commented :
>yeah but maxx, the really quick gpl and n4 guys are staying on the throttle
>whilst braking and getting a very stable car with loads of grip front and
>rear.
>i dont remember ever being taught that at silverstone?
I thought I'd explained in my post (which I include again at the foot
of this post for anyone who missed it) why :
1) It IS used in real-life, today
2) It probably is exaggerated in GPL (but I cant say for sure). The
cars of 1967 were very different beasts than those of today, the
biggest difference probably being the relatively poor brakes, which
is why you used every trick in the book to improve braking. This
couple with the relatively high (by todays standards) Centre of
Gravity, the weight "surge" to the front tires under braking would
be exaggerated, making the need to try and negate some of it
very advantageous. As far as I know brake wear was not a big
issue with these cars, I'm told they could use the same ones
for a number of races (today you have to really look after them
to last a single race).
As for being taught it at Silverstone, then of course you weren't,
do you think you were taught anything more than the very basics
of driving a race car?
As most readers will know I instructed for a few years in the
mid 90s, on occasion for the Silverstone School (was John Watson
School in those days). Theres no way we'd discuss this on those
training courses a) it's not that relevant to low-powered single
seaters or saloons b) they are not going to be going nearly fast
enough even if it was relevant to that class of car c) brakes
cost money, it was difficult enough to get them to bed new pads
in properly as it was.
I only started using the technique in probably my 3rd year of
racing, to me it made sense adn was mainly to stop the rear
fishtailing (which IMO is the reason the fast guys use it, rather than
to get increased brake efficiency). I suspect they may have
found out by accident that this is a side-effect. Again however,
if you understand that under heavy brakes weight is transferred
forward, and that acceleration moves weight rearward, that
you have tires with about twice the "grip" at the rear than the
front, you might come to this conclusion anyway.
There seems to be lots of posts recently form people who
for whatver reason can't go faster, I just don't have time to
reply to them all even though I'd like to.
I've read some where guys are already very quick in games
like GP3/SCGT whatever and can't understand why they
are not nearer the top in GPL. GPL is an extrremely good
simulation of real life race car driving. Put an untrained
person in a race car, 365 practice days per year, and he
would likely never even reach the standard of the average
club driver. Even the very best semi-pro and pro drivers are
often put to shame by the likes of a "guest" driver, say
Martin Brundle, who was never an F1 hotshoe (although
I have seen Martin drive a number of vehicles and the guy
is unbelievably quick).
The point of the above, you need to know how to drive a
race car, it's nothing like driving a road car, or even a road car
at high speed. There 10 times more to it than I discuss im my
GPLEGS package, but at least thats a start.
You also need to work at it, not just drive. Even when you
get "quick" (more so in fact) you need to analyse your
driving, analyse where you lose time, find out where you are
already going well adn don't try and overdrive that section.
Do you know :
What your tire temps are after Lap1? Lap2
Whats the optimum tire temp for maximum grip?
Where exactly do you lose time to a drivers lap you
are comparing yourself too.
Do you know why?
Do you use his setup?
Do you understand what the setup is doing to the car
and how to drive it?
Have you watched you driving in replay from Chase/TV
views.
Have you compared your slip-angle usage to that of the guy
you are aiming for.
Have you merged your best lap with his and listened to the
engine revs through the corner, is he entering with a trailing
throttle, lifting off at the apex to bing the back around, where
exactly does he put the power down.
Are you really using the same line/using all the track.
RA is not sufficient to give you all this info, great product though
it is
Real-life drivers walk the course, have you been around at low
speed in an F3?
OK, thats a bit over the top maybe for GPL, but the point is, if
your JUST driving your only doing half the work required to
be fast.
If I was relaly serious about going fast at a track I'd
download a fast replay (poss not the WR unless I am already
within a couple of seconds of it).
Watch it and make any note I think are useful. prob looking at
each corner 3 times.
Run a few acclimatisation laps, poss check tire temps/psi,
make sure I know I'm getting enough hear in, not too much
heat in.
Do 5 laps, prob trying slightly different approaches on each,
but idealkly ONLY 1 DIFFERENCE.
Exit GPL, load into RA, work out which of the 5 has the fastest
first 25/50/75%, try adn find out why, compare the best sections
to the fast lap, understand where and why I'm losiing time.
IDENTIFY WHERE I "DO NOT" have a problem, I can then
FORGET ABOUT this section and concentrtate on where I
do need to improve.
back into GPL, look at the best sections, realise why they
are the best.
Try and do a lap which has 4 good sections in it, also try
anythong I may have learnt from the hotlap.
5 laps again, re-analyse.
About this stage I'm getting tired and bored with the track, so
before I start getting slow (bored=slow) I do a quick 5 laps
without TRYING too hard, trying not to have my head full
of brake here, clip here, watch this, do this etc. Hopefully
somewhere in there I have set a new PB.
OK, I rarely do the above, thats because I'm not THAT
serious about going faster. I'm not prepared to put
that amount of time in. If it was real-life and my carreer
you bet I would, and did for a while in my real-life racing
career.
As I'm not prepared to put that amount of effort and
dedication in I'm not going to complain about the other 240
guys that are ahead of me in GPLRank. Just as I didn't
get dispondent that Nigel Mansell, Martin Brundle, John
Clelland (BTCC) where that much quicker than me after 4-5
years of part-time club racing.
Just as I didn't get dispondent when I was 1000+ ranked.
in GPL.
Phew! sorry for the big lecture guys, hoepfully it puts things
into a little perspective.
Comments as ever, most welcome.
Maxx
[posted to r.a.s. 16.01.01 in response to a thread :]
Re: Do real race car drivers stay on the throttle when Braking ? NO!
On Tue, 16 Jan 2001 01:10:46 -0000, "Alexpez" <alex...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>so, in the papyurus sims we've now got that use the cracking GPL phys
>engine, i have to ask whether the driving techniques used in these can be
>used in real life.
Well, I think it's very clear that you can do some things in GPL that
a) wouldn't work in real-life and b) if they did would have major
impact on tire adn brake wear.
>Firstly, let me state that trail braking is moving from the throttle to the
>brake prior to a corner, getting most braking done in a straight line, then
>comming off the brake a little and turning into the corner (notice i didnt
>mention throttle after the brake was touched)
Your definition of trail-braking is perfect, however, to trail-brake
into a fast (>80mph) corner you must have some gas on so as
to keep the rears from going really light, losing traction and
sending the car into oversteer.
>In GPL and especially N4 it is easier to go into corners with a loose and
>quick car by pressing the brake whilst letting off the accelerator, and
>keeping a little throttle on the whole time (the GPL people will say 'you
>are dynamically altering brake bias', to which i would say ' you dont do
>that in real life')
I'm not sure I fully understand that. Certainly you are not altering
the brake bias, that is fixed in GPL Most formula cars in real-life
do have cockpit brake-bias adjusters however.
What you are doing by providing power to the rear wheels whilst
braking is altering the weight balance under braking. If the weight
of the car stayed as it was at rest with more weight over the
rear tires you would set brake balance more rearward. You may
add a few extra clicks rearward as well as you have a greater
contact patch at the rear.
Howver, under throttle off braking the weight is shifted dramatically
foward, so we need to give the brakes a more forward bias, plus it
is always preferable for fronts to lose traction fractionally before
rears (although we don't want either of course).
This means we are braking much more with our skinny frint-tyres
than the wide rears. By providing power to the rears we shift the
weight balance under braking more rearward, hence we need to move
our brake balance more rearward to compensate.
We in effect get a greater braking force which, although it has
to brake more (as we are still pushing the car forward with
power) does in fact provide overall, a greater degree of
retardation. Theres a whole load of factors that go into this, but
GPL cars would I suspect, by nature of their realtively poor brake
performance and disparity between
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