rec.autos.simulators

by **Phil Hobb** » Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:00:00

I must try that.

--
#33
Spa...not yet.

>When you start to spin or slid, you turn away from the spin (which is
>normally what you do) and it spins more but if you turn into the spin
(which
>normally makes you spin down low) it stops spinning and you go about
your
>business. Just ticks me off cause it is completely opposite in real
racing.
>Jesse

by **T.Galvi** » Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Well actually Wasco that is exactly what happens in real racing. Opposite
lock is what you use to control the slide until your rear gets past the
point of no return . When this happens the momentum of the car has now
changed and opposite lock is now forcing the car to spin even more. By
reversing the lock like you say, you are allowing the front to re-catch the
rear so to speak and regain control.
This is the first lesson I learnt racing dirt track speedway and was amazed
how well it was modelled in GPL. Once you have learned to use it to save
your ass you can then use it to push the car to the limit.

Todd.

>When you start to spin or slid, you turn away from the spin (which is
>normally what you do) and it spins more but if you turn into the spin
(which
>normally makes you spin down low) it stops spinning and you go about your
>business. Just ticks me off cause it is completely opposite in real
racing.
>Jesse

by **Anssi Lehtin** » Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> Yeah i run at 18 normally and I can notice it a lot at silverstone and at
> turn 1 at monza. In turn 1 at Mza, on teh exit, if it is a little loose
> coming out and i start to turn to the left a little to correct, it will
> continue the spin but if I turn RIGHT or hold it to where i was steering, it
> just keeps going. Same thing happened at silver today. I was driving
> around and I started spinning in turn 1, so i just held it at that amount of
> steering and added just a little bit more, but then the next time it did the
> same thing, it got real loose but this time i corrected it using what should
> work and it spun out right away. Happens all the time. Dont know why but
> it is very unrealistic. It should help correct or straighten it out when
> you use opposite lock. If I get a good replay showing the 2 then ill post
> it.

Don't post it but put it up on a web page. I would totally like to see it.
In these cars you can do so much with throttle inputs that the alignment
of the front wheels may make little difference.

--
Anssi Lehtinen

by **David Ewin** » Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> but think about it, the whole car gets loose, you crank in more steering to
> make it turn more unless it goes to a 90 degree angles, if you are really
> sliding in real life with the back end halfway out and crank in more
> steering, isnt it going to catch and continue to spin? Only answer if you
> have real life experience.

Doug Milliken (a well known authority on the subject) posted a detailed
explanation of why this is realistic. See if you can find it with
dejanews.

Dave Ewing

by **schwab** » Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Just my 2 cents... I think GPL does it ok. At Silver, tho, beware of the
crown! That can do some wierd things if each end of the car is on
opposite sides of the crown. AND... maybe your throttle/brake work was
not EXACTLY the same in each instance. Adding more (or less) of one than
the other at the wrong time can change things a lot too... as I'm sure
you know.

--Dave

> Yeah i run at 18 normally and I can notice it a lot at silverstone and at
> turn 1 at monza. In turn 1 at Mza, on teh exit, if it is a little loose
> coming out and i start to turn to the left a little to correct, it will
> continue the spin but if I turn RIGHT or hold it to where i was steering, it
> just keeps going. Same thing happened at silver today. I was driving
> around and I started spinning in turn 1, so i just held it at that amount of
> steering and added just a little bit more, but then the next time it did the
> same thing, it got real loose but this time i corrected it using what should
> work and it spun out right away. Happens all the time. Dont know why but
> it is very unrealistic. It should help correct or straighten it out when
> you use opposite lock. If I get a good replay showing the 2 then ill post
> it.
> Wosco

> >On Wed, 24 Feb 1999 16:46:50 -0500,

> >>When you start to spin or slid, you turn away from the spin (which is
> >>normally what you do) and it spins more but if you turn into the spin
> (which
> >>normally makes you spin down low) it stops spinning and you go about your
> >>business. Just ticks me off cause it is completely opposite in real
> racing.
> >>Jesse

> >It doesn't do that for me. I would strongly suggest increasing your
> steering
> >ratio (less sensitive), or taking it a little more easy!

> >--
> >// rrevved posts from mindspring dot com

--
Dave Schwabe
The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://users.wi.net/~schwabe

by **Grant Reev** » Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:00:00

> Driving GPL reminds me of driving in snow/ice. Now, I have never
> driven a rear-engine vehical in the snow

I very definitely have to agree with your comment of driving
in snow reminding me of GPL :) A couple of times since I bought
a Toyota MR2 a month ago I've experimented with snow driving in
the supermarket parking lot accross the road because I had never
driven in snow conditions before and needed the experience. An
MR2 is a Mid-engine, Rear-wheel drive, 2 seater (hence the MR2
designation) sports car. The model I have does have LSD, I should
mention, and I've also got proper snow tires on it. The first time
I was skid-pad testing in the snow and*** the tail out I
discovered that counter-steering works perfectly for controlling
and correcting when the rear starts to head off in it's own
direction. To me it feels pretty much exactly like GPL but at
lower speeds and in slow motion. But with a 58% weight bias on
the rear snow tires the rear wheels do get a lot of good traction
compared to front engine rear wheel drive cars which end up fish-
tailing, and the LSD makes certain that the inside rear doesn't just
light up and spin uselessly.

Not sure if this post helped the discussion at all...

Grant.

by **Wosc** » Fri, 26 Feb 1999 04:00:00

well the rears havnt gone completely past the point of no return, just when
i get a slight looseness and i try to correct it will spin more.

> Well actually Wasco that is exactly what happens in real racing. Opposite
>lock is what you use to control the slide until your rear gets past the
>point of no return . When this happens the momentum of the car has now
>changed and opposite lock is now forcing the car to spin even more. By
>reversing the lock like you say, you are allowing the front to re-catch the
>rear so to speak and regain control.
> This is the first lesson I learnt racing dirt track speedway and was
amazed
>how well it was modelled in GPL. Once you have learned to use it to save
>your ass you can then use it to push the car to the limit.

> Todd.

>>When you start to spin or slid, you turn away from the spin (which is
>>normally what you do) and it spins more but if you turn into the spin
>(which
>>normally makes you spin down low) it stops spinning and you go about your
>>business. Just ticks me off cause it is completely opposite in real
>racing.
>>Jesse

by **KCDC** » Sat, 27 Feb 1999 04:00:00

Wosco,

I'm not necessarily an expert on this, but I do have 30+ years of experience
driving *** ice and gravel, which GPL feels a lot like. It could be,
that by steering into the slide, you are causing the fronts to have more
traction, agravating the start of the spin.

By counter steering, you are reducing the tire slip angle. If you had a lot
of lock on, or at least a large slip angle at the front, reducing the slip
angle will give you more grip at the front. All tires have a peak in the
grip vs. slip angle, and once you go past the peak it declines fairly
rapidly. If the counter steering brings the front tires back up the "back
side" of the traction curve, they will grip more, and make the spin worse.
On the other hand, turning in more, will further reduce the front's grip.
This may be enough to re-balance the car with the rears starting to slide,
catching the spin.

I have never had GPL do anything that didn't feel completely right (besides
the occasional computer crash, and of course that damn internet warping!).
I've driven on, and perhaps too frequently past, the edge on ice and snow,
and while I have limited experience with a rear engine car (anyone remember
the Fiat 750 Spyder?), GPL feels exactly right to me.

Kevin Caldwell
Calgary, Canada

>well the rears havnt gone completely past the point of no return, just when
>i get a slight looseness and i try to correct it will spin more.

by **Wozm** » Sat, 27 Feb 1999 04:00:00

I thought this was a joke at first..guess not. You turn your wheels INTO a
slide to correct, not away. Turning into a slide allows the front end to
"catch up" to the rear of the car.
In case your wondering, other than drag racing I do not have any experience.
But my Father and Uncles raced stocks in the chicago area in the 50's and 60's
and I was raised in the pits.
If in doubt, watch a World of Outlaws Sprint car. Its easy to see as they have
to correct in a much more exagerated way.

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