rec.autos.simulators

Well said!

If there ever was a post for direct inclusion into the ras FAQ, this is
it...

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Oh my, I rather have an exciting bold and new SIM instead of an exciting
bold
and new API...and if GPL is not this kind of sim to you, well...

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Interesting point, but I don't think I know many people with one of the above
cards without a 3dfx-made card of some description. However that said, I don't
think the comments that people will buy one just to play GPL are right. I know
of many people who got a 3dfx card to enable them to play GLQuake but I know
more people who waited until there were more games around that supported it
before laying out their cash. The point is that where some people can, and
will, spend money on new hardware when others won't.

The issue here though is not upgrading or downgrading but whether or not
Papyrus/Sierra should have pushed D3D. The answer, really is yes but they
didn't so why the stress?

I think everyone would agree NO ONE would be "competitive" with GPL the
very 1st day they bought the game.  Everyone has to learn the game to
some extent.  If that takes "aids" then I would recommend it.  After
awhile and "if" that person has the desire to be more competitive then
they can take the "aids" off.  Bottom line, the games isn't that hard
for someone who actually WANTS to race a sim-race car.  Causual Arcade
Gamer --- Naaaa, but they would understand that fact about 10 mins of
playing the game.

Explain more... Not exactly sure why it is apples and oranges.

Bill / Amish on TEN

Defining "intelligence" as being people who agree with you is one sure
way to stunt intellectual development.

Being abusive has a similar effect...

Cheers!
John

I really disagree with you on this, I have tried other sims and have
always gotten frustrated after the first couple weeks, with GPL it is
very different, the way you can start out with novice training cars
really helps you to learn the game before moving up to the cars with
more horsepower.  I am enjoying this game more than I would have
imagined.  I loved F1GP on the Amiga and this game reminds me of the
fun I had with that game.

Cyriel

Are you even listening?  The S3 Savage3D is not even available yet, the Riva
TNT just came out a couple months ago, and the Riva 128 and i740 are
renowned for two things - SPEED and POOR IMAGE QUALITY, particularly the
i740.  They also did not exist for most of GPL's development cycle.

It's like your entire mentality is driven by the latest buzzwords - D3Dv6!
OpenGL! TNT! - with no awareness of the reality of developing a game like
GPL.

It's not like GPL was thought up in March, developed in April-August, and
released to the world in October.  We're talking two years here, and trying
to hit the graphics accelerator market's moving target is a fool's game.
You develop for the *** hardware in your target market - stuff that's
available to the people who will want to play your game - and that's 3dfx
and Rendition.

The quality of the game is NOT determined by which brand-spanking-new 3d API
it supports - it's in the gameplay, and if you'd stop whining about which
cards GPL doesn't support and play the game on one that it does, you'd
realize how silly your arguments sound.

Rick

Simply outdated as far as the 3D API? Is my 12mb Voodoo 2 only purchased 6
months ago outdated? Is my Rendition Verite 2200, also purchased this year
already outdated? Damn! I guess that month old TNT will probably be outdated
by Christmas! You can question Papyrus decision to not provide wider
platform support, but to say that the API's are outdated is just not true.
It all has to do with programming anyway. The Rendition version of GPL runs
much better on my P233mmx machine with Hercules Rendition Verite 2200 and
Canopus Pure 3D 3DFX Voodoo 1 than the 3DFX glide version does. Does that
mean Rendition's API is better than Glide or less obsolete? On my PII with 2
Pure 3D II's in SLI, the Glide version smokes the Rendition. I guarantee
that a D3D version would not run better than the Glide version, even with
Direct X 6.

On the last 3DFX confernece call, an analyst asked 3DFX if Glide was
becoming obsolete because of Direct X. Their answer was that Glide allows
developers immediate acess to the new features of the 3DFX cards. If
developers had to wait for Direct X to support some of the new features(ie
multi-texturing) then only with the recent release of Direct X 6 would Quake
2/Unreal be able to take advantage of these new features. As of this date
Unreal's D3D patch is still not out of beta and in limited support. However,
I have been enjoying it on my Voodoo 2 for months. When a newer 3DFX card
becomes available(1999?), Glide will be the only gateway to these new
features. 3DFX also pointed out that there will still be many Glide only
games released for this Christmas season. So if Papyrus is banking on
obsolete technology then so are alot of other companies.

AND, amazingly enough, if you go to the Planet Unreal files site
http://www.planetunreal.com/index.asp?files/index.shtm
it states the following:

"If you are using an OpenGL based 3D card then you'll definitely want try
out the beta Open GL patch (278 KB). Currently the only cards that are
supported are the Rendition cards. Be sure to check the readme file before
trying it out"

What!! Only cards supported are Rendition? Apparently Epic MegaGames does
not think they are obsolete. Sure its opengl, but guess what? You have to
have a specific video card to be able to run it!

GPL has been in development for at least 3 years. Two years ago, when the
first viable 3D cards were appearing on the consumer market, D3D was
absolutely terrible and true opengl(not minigl) was only running on
extremely high-end, expensive, professional video cards. One year ago, D3D
was still terrible(check out CART Precision Racing for the proof) and
Quake/Quake II engine games had opengl support for a few select cards. Only
in the last several months have consumer cards been made available that run
opengl and D3D at frame rates that match what is achievable by 3DFX's Glide
or Rendition's API.

Not true. There are alot of other games that will not run, or not run as
well as the 3DFX Glide version.
Also, my 12mb Voodoo 2 beats every one of these cards hands down except for
Riva TNT(only available for less than a month), and it still holds its own
against the TNT depending on the game, the API, and the benchmark.

Two years is not a long time in the development cycle of a game. I obviously
don't have proof of this, but I would assume that only coding for Rendition
and 3DFX  greatly speed up the devolopment cycle. D3D was probably not a
viable option for most of the develpment cycle(especially when the engine
itself was created), and there were still precious few cards that could
really handle true opengl very well. So, its really not so shocking that
Papyrus would have made these API decisions.

Given Papyrus' history, I am sure that if an opengl or D3D version is
possible and will greatly benefit the sim community, they will release a
patch. They made a 3DFX patch for Nascar 2 after many denials that they ever
would. But the consumer won out because 3DFX quickly became a viable
hardware platform. When they were developing the original Nascar 2,
Rendition was the best solution for them at that time. Its that same type of
situation now with Grand Prix Legends. Maybe there will be a D3D or opengl
patch in the future. If so, that would be great. But if the choice was
release the game this year with Rendition and 3DFX support, or release the
game next year with D3D or opengl, I'm glad they picked the former. The
Nascar 2 3DFX patch finally came out over a year after the release of the
game. Fortunately, I had been playing the extremely outdated and obsolete
but totally kick-ass Rendition version of Nascar 2 for that prior year. And
now I am enjoying the extremely outdated and obsolete Grand Prix Legends.
But hey, these are extremely outdated and obsolete cars, drivers, and
tracks, so maybe that's just what Papyrus intended!  ;)

Don Chapman

    The 3DFX API *is* outdated.(there's a long list that it can't do)
Not the damn card.  D3D will be here forever and keep getting better and
better. Why? MICROSOFT. These butt-munchers own and control everything
and we just half to live with it. 3DFX will fall the same way Netscape
is and will. That's life.  Luckily your Voodoo2 card handles D3D!  And,
yes, my TNT *will* be out of date in 6 months.  It already is on paper.
NVIDIA's already working on another chip set!

Wooohhaaaaa!!!

--

Kevin "Q" Quattro
VFX Animator
Foundation Imaging

Duh! You are missing the point of my statements. 3DFX's API(Glide) is NOT
outdated for the development of a game that is being released today. I'm
trying to point out that given development timelines for games, Papyrus has
not done anything foolish or "absolutley stupid", which was suggested in the
original post I responded to, by choosing Glide and Rendition support only.
Glide will constantly be updated by 3DFX to take advantage of their current
cards features. Rendition does the same with theirs. Name one D3D or opengl
game currently available that does something that the Glide version of the
game cannot do.(P.S. I'm not trying to antagonize you with these questions,
I really want to know if you have the info). What is this long list that
Glide cannot do? What can D3D or opengl do that Glide cannot? Where is this
evidenced in any 3D accelerated games available today?

The 3DFX API is outdated compared to what? Direct X 6.0 that  has been
available for only a few months? Opengl that is only supported properly by a
few cards, and even then it is scketchy? Please give me a list of currently
available D3D games that run better than their Glide counterparts. I know of
maybe one - Madden 99. Please give me a list of currently available and
working opengl games. Quake/Quake2/Hexen 2? Unreal is still in beta for
opengl, right? Does it currently work with TNT, Matrox, Riva128, i740? Any
other opengl games? Are there any not programmed by id software or running
on some version of the Quake/Quake 2 engine?

Could be, but that's not the way things have been going for Microsoft and
D3D up until recently. D3D sucked in performance and ease of programming
compared to Glide. Two years ago there is no way Papyrus would have chosen
to go with D3D, not even one year ago given the performance at the time.

Whew! What are all those must have D3D only games? Motoracer(over a year
old), Jedi Knight(over a year old), Flight Sim 98? Any others? I've yet to
see a game that gives a good reason to run a D3D version instead of a Glide
version, if both are available. And if it is D3D only, which ones are the
really good ones again?

And unfortunately, as soon as you unpacked it out of the box there were many
games that you are unable to play with it at all. And, unfortunately, there
are still more on the horizon. Fair - no. Good for the industry - probably
not. Fact - YES! With my 3DFX card there are only 2 3D accelerated games
released in the last 2 years that I cannot play: (1) Indycar II(CART Racing)
by Papyrus (2) SODA Off Road Racing by Papyrus. Both of these games are
Rendition enhanced only. That is why I also have a Rendition Verite 2D/3D
card. When a game that I am interested in comes out that I am unable to play
to my satisfaction on my current setup, then I will have to consider
upgrading. Is this good for my marriage? No. Is it reality? Yes. Is it a
sick obsession? Yes.

What I'm trying to point out, obviously to no avail, is that Papyrus'
choosing to support native 3DFX and Rendition is not some crazy, stupid,
narrow-minded scheme to keep all matrox, s3, nVidia, and Intel i740 users in
the dark. They were looking for the best performance for the largest number
of users, given the state of the industry at that point in time.

Hey, if Papyrus release a TNT patch for Grand Prix Legends that will allow
for full details and a full field of cars at 1024x768 resolution at constant
36fps, then I will be the first in line to buy one. However, until then I am
happy with my 3DFX.

Don Chapman

So, there is a long list of stuff it can't do.  Is there hardware out there
that will do these things?  There is no reason to have an API that does
something if the hardware doesn't.  Glide has the advantage of supporting
all the features of a just released card.  If you are banking on D3D, you
have to wait for microsoft to get off their but and add the support for the
features you are mentioning.  Then you still have to have a driver by the
card manufacturer that will take the d3d calls and route them to the
appropriate hardware.

If you go the way of glide, then the API does everything the card does, if
you go the way of D3D, you have to wait for microsoft to add the support for
things, even if the card you are using supports the features.  Example:
multi-texturing.  Glide could do it as soon as the card was available that
did it.  D3D couldn't do it until just recently.  Am I wrong?

-- Paul

Would you be amazed to learn the an average development cycle for a game based
on a new engine is around the 2 year mark?

Z.

Don,

Simply, Yes, Yes, but a lot longer than a year ago, and probably by Xmas, yes.

Which is rather why API's like D3D and OpenGl are so important, don;t you
think?

Z.

The flight sim guys have had a very gentle learning curve since many
sims have gradually built them up to this level. Also flying a plane
is a hell of a lot easier than driving a car in terms of coordinated
movements. They need to remember a lot of buttons to push etc, but the
controls of flying only become crucial when close to the ground.

GPL is something that is superficially easy but actually not, simply
because of what you are asked to do. Anyone can fly a plane in a sim,
but ask them to fly through a tight series of hoops or within a
certain time and it becomes difficult - precision of control is not at
a premium. In an auto-sim it is at all times. That one mistake allows
a fraction of a second to recover before disaster, not the several
seconds in a plane.

To be very good at each is probably equally difficult, but I think
it's far easier for someone to fly a plane than to drive a car
(sim-wise). I'm happy to keep a plane in the air and mess around
looking at the scenery, whereas in a car I'm at 190mph toward Curva
Grande almost before the box is open! :-)

Cheers!
John

No, but I would wonder why you mentioned it when the discussion was
about GPL - not an average game.

Cheers!
John