rec.autos.simulators

O.K, let see if I can help put this puppy to bed.

My answers here relate directly to the period in middle 1996 when
myself, Jan Kohl along with Ed Martin and Andrew Levasque of Papyrus
discussed this problem with regards to our Daytona track.

I consulted with two lawyers so if anything is wrong then I've been
lied to. Kapeesh?

Right and wrong. You can't copyright a basic geometric shape and
putting a completely different texture on it is O.K.

However,  remember that a track DAT file is made up of several
other files, each with their own format.

If you were to take that internal file (say grand5.3do) and include it
withing your own re-compiled DAT file then you have included a piece
of original Papyrus code. It's going to be the same size, same name
and have exactly the same  byte-by-byte structure as the original.

Therefore your distributing the original code with your track and
therefore breaking copyright.

When you copyright a program, game or whatever form of computer
program, it usuall covers likeness, spedific files and yes - the byte
by byte code.

True, but you can copyright a likeness.

What do you mean no-ones worked out to alter the shape yet?
It can be done but it takes so much ***y work that it takes forever.

Consider this, I know for a fact from Rick G (gawd bless 'im) that
some of work for the tracks was done in 3D studio and then put
through and internal Papyrus program to convert it (the 3DS format
is very similar to 3DO).

Now, it takes them around 2 man months to develop a track so how
long do you think it takes somebody like Gerhard Lingenberg or myself
to decode the file format and hex edit it to alter a single polygon
correctly?

It can be done, it just takes ages. And I've seen The Glen without a
chicane...

Again, this comes down to my point earlier. When Papyrus copyrights
a program it covers all the code - even the sub files formats of the
DAT to the individiual byte patterns in them.

Change one byte and yes technically its different, but by a tiny
percentage. Change a lot and you will probably get away with it - it's
a known file format but the data in it is mostly yours.

Ahh but the problem with that is association. Yes it's free
advertising but they may not want their product or services associated
with you or your own products.

I doubt a religious book shop would want to have it's corporate id
tatooed on the thigh of a working lap dancer from Vegas. Likewise,
some official series or team sponsors may want to be seen in a race
enviroment but not in your particularly contraversial new track for
ICR2.

And yes the lap dancer was probably a bad example.... It's late...

No, you can't copyright stuff like that, but as I explained earlier,
if you use the original asphalt texture file in a byte perfect
manner then you have broken copyright because the code is
copyrighted.

As an example, if I took the original Talladega track from N1 and
simply altered the texture on the walls to say Daytona then I wouldn't
really be breaking copyright as apart from that it's still Talladega.

However, if you start shifting similar shaped building into certain
positions, add a lake, some hills and new textures then your track
takes on the likeness of Daytona even if it is not 100% accurate.

Thats were the problem comes it. When does a track start becoming a
likeness? This is the problem a lot of track editors are finding when
trying to make a track accurate without breaking the law.

I can agree with this point however there are some technical issues
that need to be addressed.

Firstly the 3DO format which defines the shape of the track is very
complex. Unlike the track format for NFS, it's not that simple to
alter. You've got considerations like Z-Order, Z-Clipping, closing
gaps between polygons, etc.

I think that possible the only, most practical and most easy track
editor that Papyrus to relase would be similar to the track editor for
NFS.

Firstly, you would need to pick an original track to use for the
alteration. That would be on your hard disk and in thoery, by
purchasing the product you bought the right to use the data in your
own home.

The editor wouldn't let you make the track any longer or shorter, but
like the NFS editor you could select small sections of its length and
bend them, raise them and back them.

O.K you may need to add functionallity to move the exisiting buildings
for that track so that they are either closer or off the track but
thats about all.

IF (and it's a really big if) Papyrus/Sierra thought about it, writing
this sort of application would probably take less time than a new
racing sim and could be retailed at around the 20 quid mark.

If they sold it as a program for used by skill/advanced users and
gave us a modicum of documentation, I'm sure groups of us
could work the rest of it out ourselves.

Lastly, if this utility was released, there are people like myself
who can create and import new buildings and scenery ourselves.
I'd also gladly release my DAT editing modules into the Public Domain
so that others would be able to take their modified tracks, make patch
files and distribute them so that others could convert the tracks
without the creator having to distribute any original code.

I think a tool like this if released would create a sort of Quake like
scenario where the info is there and the users work together to
enhance their investment.

I don't see why Papy can't release some info on their file formats
though. Telling us how a 3DO file is structured won't hurt them that
much...

I made a lot of tracks for NFS and got a ton of positive feedback.
Being and-ex racer myself I know what makes a good circuit and thats
what I did with my tracks. Yes, there were other tracks but people
tended to make ones with huge long straights so you could run flat
out.

True. As an end to this rather long posting, a thought.

For all of those editing track and those wanting them - it's o.k
tarting up Talladega to look like Daytona but to drive, it's the same
track, same length, same corners and same driving. The only difference
if the scenery and if your looking at that, then you shouldn't be on
the track.

I welome sensible comments on the above posting and I'm happy to
discuss points, but start flaming me or asking me for tracks then the
only reply you'll get is a UUencoded copy of a LINUX Slackware
distibution.

Cheers

Jed
The Pits - http://www.racesimcentral.net/

That last line was only meant as a joke... :)  Amazing, I actually got
a response on a post.  Holy cow, and it was from Jim too!  Jim, its a
cryin shame that you are leaving Papyrus.  That has been said many
times.  They make great racing sims and I will continue to buy em all.

BTW, I have no plans to make my own tracks from existing components.
You see, I know NOTHING about hex editing or watever it takes.  But if
someone DOES want to look into this, lemme know what happens.  I would
be just as interested in knowing.  This was just my THOUGHT based on
logic and inteligent thinking.  I hope I am RIGHT of course, but if
not it wouldnt surprise me.

Mike Frazer

A demo is not freeware.  It's basically a handicapped version of a
product designed to give you a taste of what to expect.  I don't know
beans about the deal between Papyrus and the owners of Talladega,
but I would guess their aggreement must have included some distribution
rights.

Papyrus may have the right to distribute track(s) in their demos, but
this doesn't give someone else the right to alter (and then redistribute)
the software in any form.

Best Regards,

Marc

Marc 'Wannabealawyer' Nelson

Since this won't end....

Going back to something I stated months ago.

Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't label
it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track.

Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and
advertisments where we like.

This should do it all legally.

Again I use NBA console games as an example because it seems to fit perfectly.
Those programs have a player that looks and plays like Barkely or Jordan but
named Joe Smith with a ficticous number. The program then allows the user to
modify name and number of any player. Before long the user has created in the
privacy of there own house Barkley and Jordan. All legal or atleast there is
not 1 case of some user getting sued yet over this. You would think Papy could
do this same type of thing as well. If they can't do even this then there is
some serious red tape in the way and there is nothing we can do about it and
should write it off as a loss.

Q.B.M.

Yep.

: Is it not true that Papyrus distributed Taladega as freeware in the
: demo?  Is it also true that This can be reposted?  If this is the case
: then in fact we could alter this tracks and redistribute as we want,
: correct?  Just wondering.

Just because files were distributed with a demo does not "undo" the
copyright laws, the licensing agreements, or trademark laws.  The demo
can be redistributed as long as none of the files are missing or have
been altered.  For Papyrus to allow anything different could void their
copyright and trademark rights.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

legalities from someone who's been there. From: ccorpora

 Since this won't end....

Going back to something I stated months ago.

Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't
label  it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track.

Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and
advertisments where we like.

This should do it all legally.

Again I use NBA console games as an example because it seems to fit
perfectly.  Those programs have a player that looks and plays like Barkely
or Jordan but  named Joe Smith with a ficticous number. The program then
allows the user to  modify name and number of any player. Before long the
user has created in the  privacy of there own house Barkley and Jordan.
All legal or atleast there is  not 1 case of some user getting sued yet
over this. You would think Papy could  do this same type of thing as well.
If they can't do even this then there is  some serious red tape in the way
and there is nothing we can do about it and  should write it off as a
loss.

Q.B.M.

<

Or let the hackers take over!!!!!!!!!!!

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Jason Nichols

Commissioner

SportSim Football League

http://members.aol.com/jn141414/ssfl.html

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Feature Challenged <sniff>

that's featurly impaired.  :)

It's sad that The Pits's Daytona has faded away, but dissapointing is the
fact that Gerhard Lingenberg, who created the converters and also helped
with the Daytona Project, has dissapeared from all contact with us r.a.s.
simracing fans.  I would like to see him come back soon, I would want to
see an update of the track converter that adds real graphics, and logos,
also a converter of the labels labeling "NASCAR Racing Series" or
"IndyCar" for example, to "Winston Cup Series" or "CART" respectively.  He
is just one of the many losses in the simracing community, with the Papy
people who moved on.  But there's a ray of hope, for Jed just posted here
a few days ago, and undoubtedly that is better, for everyone at the Pits
has know the story of how he left and how the British server went down.
Well, please reply via email.

Christopher
http://members.aol.com/ROSCS
----------------------------------------------------
Dale Earnhardt: "Hey Ron...It's Earnhardt...your wife called...said sumpn' 'bout an anneversary..."

Ron Hornaday "Aww..."(slamms on brakes)

: Since this won't end....

: Going back to something I stated months ago.

: Give us a unnamed track that has charateristics like Daytona but don't label
: it as such. Call it Ed's Backyard Track.

: Give us the user the ability to edit textures, place buildings and
: advertisments where we like.

: This should do it all legally.

<snip>
: do this same type of thing as well. If they can't do even this then there is
: some serious red tape in the way and there is nothing we can do about it and
: should write it off as a loss.

There are at least 2 things at play here.  Papyrus, must keep it's nose
clean and not get corporate owners' noses out of shape.  If they took
your path, before long they would not be able to get the support they
need to develope future "realistic" race sims.  I hightly doubt that
NASCAR would have wished to work as closely with Papyrus on the NRO
project had their sims been full of "dodgey" tracks.  For some unknown
reason (not really -- but I am not going to bore everybody) corporate
companies hold "sacred" their property and do not look kindly on others
whose efforts "may" appear to devalue said property.

Secondly, Sega could probably take Papyrus to court and sue their butts
if Papy released a Daytona-look-alike.  They may not win, but rest
assured that Sega would take action and Papyrus/Sierra would be throwing
big bucks to lawyers instead of paying programmers to code race sims.
Because of this, the lawyers that Papyrus/Sierra pay already have
advised them against such efforts, and Papyrus/Sierra has taken this
advice.

Now don't get me wrong, I sure wished it wasn't so!  Just because that's
the way life works, doesn't make it "right".

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<snip excellent "tort" on copyright>
: Ahh but the problem with that is association. Yes it's free
: advertising but they may not want their product or services associated
: with you or your own products.

: I doubt a religious book shop would want to have it's corporate id
: tatooed on the thigh of a working lap dancer from Vegas. Likewise,
: some official series or team sponsors may want to be seen in a race
: enviroment but not in your particularly contraversial new track for
: ICR2.

: And yes the lap dancer was probably a bad example.... It's late...

Jed, nope!  Excellent analogy!  Made reading the whole treatise
worthwhile.  As an "ole hippy", I would love to not have the world so
wrapped up in this "legal ownership -- make lawyers rich" crap.  But,
since I'm an "old" hippy, I survived long enough to understand the
realities of life, society, and culture.  Maybe some day, these young
pups will wake up and understand, until then, thanks for the treatise.

<more snipped>

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

If he left because of all the LAMWRS out there I can nderstand WHY...

More complaining HERE than at my school because of bad grades...If
***s are complaining and using "vulgar" language this much over
games, I can tell yall need to get lives.  The Freshmen at school are
more mature (this isnt a flame to whoever wrote this, but I was
waiting for a chance to say something...)

Mike Frazer
#11 American Airlines/STP/MBNA Ford, IGN
Prime Time Motorsports

haha!!