rec.autos.simulators

by **ramso** » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

Viper is better, looks better, plays better, but SCGT is a pretty good game
too.
Viper is the most realistic racing game ever if you race in bumper view,
otherwise it's a bit slow.
GPLegends fans are in denial, those cars never handled that badly,
and it often feels like you can't control a car that's only traveling at
50mph,
[ all this talk of realism is nonsense, it's not like anybody here actually
drove any of those cars ]

>Only time will tell bud.
>JM

>> Im sure your looking forward to returning those games too ;)

>> Art
>> Stealth Racing
>> http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

>> > Well, I didn't like it well enough to keep it, but scgt is awfully
good.
>> > Definitely get the editor to turn up the ai and use all the cheats. The
>> > lighting and special effects are excellent! It's similar to viper. I am
>> > looking forward to trans-am and le mans and without a doubt will buy n3
as
>> > soon as it comes out. It all boils down to personal preference. I
simply
>> > prefer the impossible physics of GPL. The title of a post I made a few
>> > months ago may tell you something. Has GPL rasied the bar too high?
>> > JM

>> > > I would appreciate any input from those of you that are familiar with
>> > > full version of SCGT and Viper Racing. How do they compare ?
>> > > I have been very happy with Viper, particularly the physics. However,
it
>> > > is limited with the number of tracks and of course, just the one car.
I
>> > > was not at all impressed with the demo of SCGT...in fact, deleted it
>> > > from my hard drive. I am now having 2nd thoughts about it and would
like
>> > > some unbiased input.
>> > > Thanks

by **GypsyMet** » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

I have to agree with you on the GPL thing a bit. It makes me laugh everytime
someone says something like "It's a perfect simulation of racing Gran Prix cars

that hard to drive - I saw someone post the other day that they drove GPL for 2
hours without wrecking once, and it was treated as a major accomplishment. If
that were really true, no one would have ever finished a race, and certainly no
one could have afforded to replace their cars after every race. I have,
however, always attributed this to the fact that I'm at my PC and not actually
in one of those things. GPL seems to refuse to make any concessions regarding
this, which is fine for some, but I've come to rather resent that fact.

As for Viper, I can't agree with your reccomendation over SCGT. While Viper
does contain features that I wish were in SCGT, I think SCGT's cars and
especially tracks look much better and more realistic. (though considering the
latter are actually based on real tracks, this is not suprising.) I,
personally, think that the higher level cars in SCGT drive better than the
Vipers in Viper - especially with the Advanced Options editor. They are close,
though. I like it that both games include a career mode style of gameplay, but
SCGT wins here on sheer variety. If Viper had real tracks and pit stops, it
would be a much harder call, but as it is, I prefer SCGT.

by **ymenar** » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

> I have to agree with you on the GPL thing a bit. It makes me laugh
everytime
> someone says something like "It's a perfect simulation of racing Gran Prix
cars

were
> that hard to drive

There is numbers of reports. It's like racing a racing bicycle or a
mountain bike. Both are different, but they are the same on the other side.
There is indeed people who drove cars close to this. Some old vintage
Formula 3. Others old road cars. Or some Formula Atlantic from that
period. There is numbers of accurate reports from those F1 drivers in that
era about the handling of those cars. Sir Jack Brabham participated I think
also in the development of GPL. Some of us do race in real life also. We
know how a car acts on a road course. We know that GPL is presently the
summum of racing realism, and a major step.

- I saw someone post the other day that they drove GPL for 2

But we aren't Formula 1 drivers. Do you really think that those person were
just there for fun ? No they were the best racing drivers in the world.
It's a whole different issue than us, normal people, with "some" racing
talents (some more than others).

--
-- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard/Nas-Frank>
-- NROS Nascar sanctioned Guide http://www.nros.com/
-- SimRacing Online http://www.simracing.com/
-- Official mentally retarded guy of r.a.s.
-- May the Downforce be with you...

"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise
how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

by **GypsyMet** » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

I disagree - I think that as much as some people play GPL, with as many hours
as they put into it, they should be able to race at least on par with the
mediocre drivers of that era. (not in real life, mind you, but in the sim) For
some of the best out there to only be able to go 2 hours without wrecking is
ludicrous. The best drivers in 1967, and even the mediocre ones surely were
better than that. The fact that many who play GPL also race in real life merely
proves my point - these people should be able to be better at it than they are.
I believe the reason they are not is that GPL does not take care of the issues
involved between real life racing and computer simulated racing. I believe that
it simulates a 1967 Grand Prix car as accuratly as modern technology allows
for, but it leaves it at that. If I can't feel the G-forces and the vibration
of the vehicle (and no, even the best Force Feedback doesn't cut it), than I'm
obviously handicapped. Most sims take this into account, and "translate"
accordingly. I think it's cool that GPL does what it does, but for me, due to
these issues, it will never be as realistic as other games which deal better
with them.

by **Lutrel** » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

I agree that GPL is probably a little more difficult to drive than the real cars (I have driven a very soft suspended Ralt RT-1 with
a modified 2Litre, Vintage FF with street tires and crewed for Vintage F1 cars.) However I think that GPL simulated the cars
handling very well, but you dont have the car feel (G forces) that is very critical for controlling such a beast. With a LOT of
practice, you can overcome some of the no g forces feel of driving a sim and maybe anticipate what the car is going to do through
sound or visual. (I think if a FF wheel was done well for GPL then it would make it easier to "feel" the car) A lot of the control
feel or reaction of the car to controller input can be different for different users depending on the type of steering
controller,how sensitive it is set (linear) along with the amount of total lock to lock rotating degrees and the pedal travel and
how sensitive they are.
Still I think GPL is the most realistic driving physics of all the PC sims.
SCGT with some of the hacks is not nearly as realistic as GPL , but its realistic enough to feel like your driving and its more
forgiving to controller inputs so you can stay in control easier making it a lot more controllable than GPL. SCGT is the closest
thing to driving my race car that has slicks,wings,and light weight ( Viper is good but the car feels very heavy, like a heavy
street car, but thats what it is.)

Lutrell :-)

DSR # 74
http://insideracingtechnology.com/dsr1.htm

>I disagree - I think that as much as some people play GPL, with as many hours
>as they put into it, they should be able to race at least on par with the
>mediocre drivers of that era. (not in real life, mind you, but in the sim) For
>some of the best out there to only be able to go 2 hours without wrecking is
>ludicrous.

by **Steve Blankensh** » Mon, 03 May 1999 04:00:00

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can run mid-pack laptimes (vs the
AI) 'till I fall asleep! But to run out front, the margin for error
is much smaller, and the concentration required greater. Nobody can
do that for very long, either in a sim or in real life. Laptimes in
endurance races are slower than in sprint races, just as they're
slower in racing than in qualifying. Jim Clark himself couldn't run
laps at qualifying pace for 2hrs+. Besides the obvious setup
differences, there HAS to be greater margin for error. The fact that
sim racers tend to push their limits constantly, unhindered by fear of
injury or death, is a big factor in crash frequency.

The better alternative being...........?

The lack of feedback is indeed what makes GPL so difficult at first,
as admitted in the game manual. However, once you learn to read the
aural and visual cues sufficiently, it becomes second-nature to toss
the car around. As for other sims "translating" the lack of feedback,
I'm not sure how to interpret that, except for letting the driver make
inputs that would result in grief, without having that result. That
doesn't seem very sim-like to me, and is exactly what other sims get
slammed for. Heaven forbid they dilute N3 like that! I would
however, repeat the mantra that you HAVE to be getting 36 FPS to
really "feel" the cars in GPL. Papy has already taken plenty of flack
for the game's CPU requirements, so I won't add to that, but if you're
not getting max FPS and are having trouble "getting" GPL, there's your
answer. The difference between 30FPS and 36FPS is NOTsubtle!

But there are obviously different views on GPL, so it's good that the
market's giving us all some other good options. As they say, "you
pays yer money; you gets yer choice!"

Steve B.
(Lotus Junkie)

Remove "edy" from address for email

by Jo » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00

>...and the fact that they had a seat-of-the-pants feel that
>provided the necessary physical sensations needed to drive the car.

I think this is the crux of the matter. As you say GPL has made some
headway in this area (via***pit motion and so on) but then again,
because the simulation is more advanced this headway doesn't go nearly
far enough IMO. In other words, the more realistic the physics model,
the more alternate-feedback is required to make up for the lack of
seat-of-the-pants feel.

The end result may be great to diehard simmers. But personally,
although I've put more time into GPL than many other games, I'm close
to giving up on it. I just don't have the patience or time for the
ump*** number of hotlapping hours required to acquire even remotely
competitive skills.

Joe

by **Chris Schlette** » Wed, 05 May 1999 04:00:00

To some extent, yes. But you must also learn to read what the car is doing.

Don't hotlap. Practice shouldn't be hotlapping anyways. You should be
concentrating on learning the track, experimenting with different lines and
learning each corner and what the corner needs. You will never get faster
unless you learn the tracks.

by Jo » Thu, 06 May 1999 04:00:00

>I think everyone needs to decide how to order their priorities:
>driving, racing, or winning.

What I've found to be fun in GPL is multiplay racing ... but I'm so
slow I usually end up racing alone. I'm giving it one last go with the
F3 cars, hopefully that will keep me in the pack.

There aren't that many people racing it. I need to either get better,
or I'm racing by myself.

Joe

by **Chris Schlette** » Thu, 06 May 1999 04:00:00

Go to www.simracingnews.com and check out Tom Pabst's excellent guide for
GPL newbies on how to get the most out of practice time to learn both the
tracks and the cars.

> >I think everyone needs to decide how to order their priorities:
> >driving, racing, or winning.

> What I've found to be fun in GPL is multiplay racing ... but I'm so
> slow I usually end up racing alone. I'm giving it one last go with the
> F3 cars, hopefully that will keep me in the pack.

> >If it's racing, then you only need find
> >opponents who match your skill level.

> There aren't that many people racing it. I need to either get better,
> or I'm racing by myself.

> Joe

by Jo » Thu, 06 May 1999 04:00:00

>Go to www.simracingnews.com and check out Tom Pabst's excellent guide for
>GPL newbies on how to get the most out of practice time to learn both the
>tracks and the cars.

Thanks!

Joe

by **geof** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

Having only played the demo's of each game I'm not much to say which
game is absolutely better. I can say each game has its ups and downs
(as do most). The one reason I'll lean toward SCGT (and T-A Racing
68-72 when it's released) is the selection of cars. I think it's cool
to pick from different types and body styles of cars rather than racing
strictly Vipers. The exhaust flames in SCGT surprised me as well as the
heating brake rotors in Viper Racing. I see *** companies are paying
more attention to physics and how race cars behave. I also like the
fact that in Viper Racing you can stay inside the car as it tumbles on a
3D axis. T-A Racing 68-72 is also supposedly going to have that as a
feature, as well as a "head-bob" type deal. If you accelerate, your
view from inside the car will tilt upward slightly, go around a corner,
your view will shift toward the inside of the turn because your body
weight is transfering to the outside of the track. Run over a few bumps
with the hard Trans-Am racing suspension in a '70 Boss Mustang and your
head will "vibrate" or shake in general.
I am still "steering-wheel/pedal-less" however. Could someone suggest
me a good quality inexpensive model or build one with a "real" custom
steering wheel attached for my driving pleasure? You may post to the NG

added as I don't visit here that often. Thank you.

Musclecar fan,
Geoff

by **Don Hanco** » Wed, 12 May 1999 04:00:00

>The end result may be great to diehard simmers. But personally,
>although I've put more time into GPL than many other games, I'm close
>to giving up on it. I just don't have the patience or time for the
>ump*** number of hotlapping hours required to acquire even remotely
>competitive skills.

>Joe

Ashamedly that's my point with NR99. I had to scale WAY back
on an offline league I was running with because it was getting too
frustrating for me to try to run on tracks where my qualifying run was
ALSO my practice run! 'Course that's with force AI levels; doesn't
GPL have varying AI skill levels? If so, can't they be scaled back
while you learn as in NRx?

"Gunner"
ORSA Bronze #78 Navy Dodge truck

rec.autos.simulators

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