rec.autos.simulators

by **Ed Whit** » Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:06:58

Hey y'all, I'm wheel shopping and looking to spend $150-175, should I just
order a MOMO, or is there anything else comparable available now? TSW would
be nice, but they're twice what I can spend. Are all wheels these days using
pots? Or are digital wheels truly digital, ie: solid state? I'm currently
using a Thrustmaster SuperSport with paddles, it's best feature is split
axis for gas/brake, and not much else. I'd like some software which would
allow the buttons to be mapped to keystroke combos, say, shift-r to get me
back in a straight car, or esc-enter to leave track in N4. Finally, since
I'm spending MY money here, I'd like it not to be a total piece of ***:^)
Any and all ideas/opinions considered, TIA, Ed

by **Pierre Robitaill** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 00:16:06

One alternative to the Momo would be the Force RS with the gated
shifter: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
I've never tried it myself, but I've read good things about it.

> Hey y'all, I'm wheel shopping and looking to spend $150-175, should I just
> order a MOMO, or is there anything else comparable available now? TSW would
> be nice, but they're twice what I can spend. Are all wheels these days using
> pots? Or are digital wheels truly digital, ie: solid state? I'm currently
> using a Thrustmaster SuperSport with paddles, it's best feature is split
> axis for gas/brake, and not much else. I'd like some software which would
> allow the buttons to be mapped to keystroke combos, say, shift-r to get me
> back in a straight car, or esc-enter to leave track in N4. Finally, since
> I'm spending MY money here, I'd like it not to be a total piece of ***:^)
> Any and all ideas/opinions considered, TIA, Ed

by **Tom Pabs** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:51:46

Ed..

Why not look at getting one of the entry-level BRD wheels? They will give
you the look and feel of real racing components (metal) and their wheels are
upgradeable (they even have trade-in programs). You can add and build up
your racing wheel/pedal system as your budget allows. They are the only
wheel on the market designed, just to do that! You can ask a few guys who
run them in VROC, what they think of them for "racing" and lap improvement.
You will find no better sim racing controls for that....including the TSW or
ECCI systems. Spending $150 on plastic and "game/arcade" systems....to me
is a bigger waste of money, unless you are not a serious sim racer.

Take a look at BRD at least, Ed. They deserve to be on your shopping list,
I think.

Tom

by **Joe Marque** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 05:55:44

I'm waiting for the MOMO to arrive this week. I have a TSW2, LWFF, Logitech
force GP (PS2) and TM Ferrari (DC). The LWFF is the best of the lot since
FF has changed the racing experience for me. The TSW2 is the most precise
and durable but I can't give up FF. After reading mini-reviews from some
guys in this ng I'm convinced the MOMO is the next level for me. Supposedly
much improved pedals, both stiffer and more precise (the original LWFF
pedals were fine except for GPL). Metal paddle shifters. Leather wrapped
MOMO wheel with 6 buttons (real nice looking wheel). The type of custom
mapping you're looking for using Wingman Profiler software. Gear driven
mechanism, allegedly super smooth due to ball bearings. I have faith in the
reviews I read based on the reputations of the guys who wrote them, so I'm
pretty e***d.

As for Act Labs, I've heard mostly good things about the Force RS except for
the pedals and notchiness in the wheel due to plastic gears. Someone who
bought the MOMO thinks it's better than the Force RS they currently own. I
know there's a 3 pedal upgrade coming out (yes it has a clutch) but that
will put you over $175. Currently it's $139 for the wheel and $59 for the
pedals.

--
Joe Marques

by **Dave Henri** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:37:07

I went the other way Joe. After fighting with the LWFF pedals for a year,
I got a used TM Pro Digital 2 w/o FF. The ability to configure the pedal
inputs more than makes up for the FF. I do miss running Zandvoort with FF
tho...there is a right/left/right combo before the last hill with a slight
dip. If you hit it right the dip catches the car and turns you into the
last apex. Feeling that with Ff was cooler than cool.
dave henrie

> I'm waiting for the MOMO to arrive this week. I have a TSW2, LWFF,
Logitech
> force GP (PS2) and TM Ferrari (DC). The LWFF is the best of the lot since
> FF has changed the racing experience for me. The TSW2 is the most precise
> and durable but I can't give up FF. After reading mini-reviews from some
> guys in this ng I'm convinced the MOMO is the next level for me.
Supposedly
> much improved pedals, both stiffer and more precise (the original LWFF
> pedals were fine except for GPL). Metal paddle shifters. Leather wrapped
> MOMO wheel with 6 buttons (real nice looking wheel). The type of custom
> mapping you're looking for using Wingman Profiler software. Gear driven
> mechanism, allegedly super smooth due to ball bearings. I have faith in
the
> reviews I read based on the reputations of the guys who wrote them, so I'm
> pretty e***d.

> As for Act Labs, I've heard mostly good things about the Force RS except
for
> the pedals and notchiness in the wheel due to plastic gears. Someone who
> bought the MOMO thinks it's better than the Force RS they currently own.
I
> know there's a 3 pedal upgrade coming out (yes it has a clutch) but that
> will put you over $175. Currently it's $139 for the wheel and $59 for the
> pedals.

> --
> Joe Marques

> > Hey y'all, I'm wheel shopping and looking to spend $150-175, should I
just
> > order a MOMO, or is there anything else comparable available now? TSW
> would
> > be nice, but they're twice what I can spend. Are all wheels these days
> using
> > pots? Or are digital wheels truly digital, ie: solid state? I'm
currently
> > using a Thrustmaster SuperSport with paddles, it's best feature is split
> > axis for gas/brake, and not much else. I'd like some software which
would
> > allow the buttons to be mapped to keystroke combos, say, shift-r to get
me
> > back in a straight car, or esc-enter to leave track in N4. Finally,
since
> > I'm spending MY money here, I'd like it not to be a total piece of ***
> :^)
> > Any and all ideas/opinions considered, TIA, Ed

by WB » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:03:28

After logitech released there Wingman FF GP which should just be a toy
for toddlers to play with, I'm not sure I trust logitech anymore to
build anything reliable.

by **Pierre Robitaill** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:50:02

Hi Tom,

Do you have a link for the BRD system?

Thanks,
-pierre

> Ed..

> Why not look at getting one of the entry-level BRD wheels? They will give
> you the look and feel of real racing components (metal) and their wheels are
> upgradeable (they even have trade-in programs). You can add and build up
> your racing wheel/pedal system as your budget allows. They are the only
> wheel on the market designed, just to do that! You can ask a few guys who
> run them in VROC, what they think of them for "racing" and lap improvement.
> You will find no better sim racing controls for that....including the TSW or
> ECCI systems. Spending $150 on plastic and "game/arcade" systems....to me
> is a bigger waste of money, unless you are not a serious sim racer.

> Take a look at BRD at least, Ed. They deserve to be on your shopping list,
> I think.

> Tom

> > Hey y'all, I'm wheel shopping and looking to spend $150-175, should I just
> > order a MOMO, or is there anything else comparable available now? TSW
> would
> > be nice, but they're twice what I can spend. Are all wheels these days
> using
> > pots? Or are digital wheels truly digital, ie: solid state? I'm currently
> > using a Thrustmaster SuperSport with paddles, it's best feature is split
> > axis for gas/brake, and not much else. I'd like some software which would
> > allow the buttons to be mapped to keystroke combos, say, shift-r to get me
> > back in a straight car, or esc-enter to leave track in N4. Finally, since
> > I'm spending MY money here, I'd like it not to be a total piece of ***
> :^)
> > Any and all ideas/opinions considered, TIA, Ed

by **Joe Marque** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:59:38

If GPL were my primary interest I think I'd be back to my TSW2 by now. I
still haven't matched my best overall lap achieved using my TSW2. The LWFF
feels great in GPL, I'm just a better driver with the TSW2. I attribute the
difference to the braking capability with the far superior pedals on the
TSW2. The tremendous resistance under heavy braking keeps my on the edge of
lock. I can literally feel that tiny fraction before lock-up. I cannot do
this with LWFF (not even close). This is worth about 4-5 seconds at
Watkins.

I'm hoping the MOMO pedals allow more precise braking so I can match my TSW2
times. More importantly, I hope MOMO adds more precision to F1 2001, my new
obsession ;-). Until the release of . . . (holding breath) WSC.

--
Joe Marques

> I went the other way Joe. After fighting with the LWFF pedals for a
year,
> I got a used TM Pro Digital 2 w/o FF. The ability to configure the pedal
> inputs more than makes up for the FF. I do miss running Zandvoort with FF
> tho...there is a right/left/right combo before the last hill with a slight
> dip. If you hit it right the dip catches the car and turns you into the
> last apex. Feeling that with Ff was cooler than cool.
> dave henrie

> > I'm waiting for the MOMO to arrive this week. I have a TSW2, LWFF,
> Logitech
> > force GP (PS2) and TM Ferrari (DC). The LWFF is the best of the lot
since
> > FF has changed the racing experience for me. The TSW2 is the most
precise
> > and durable but I can't give up FF. After reading mini-reviews from
some
> > guys in this ng I'm convinced the MOMO is the next level for me.
> Supposedly
> > much improved pedals, both stiffer and more precise (the original LWFF
> > pedals were fine except for GPL). Metal paddle shifters. Leather
wrapped
> > MOMO wheel with 6 buttons (real nice looking wheel). The type of custom
> > mapping you're looking for using Wingman Profiler software. Gear driven
> > mechanism, allegedly super smooth due to ball bearings. I have faith in
> the
> > reviews I read based on the reputations of the guys who wrote them, so
I'm
> > pretty e***d.

> > As for Act Labs, I've heard mostly good things about the Force RS except
> for
> > the pedals and notchiness in the wheel due to plastic gears. Someone
who
> > bought the MOMO thinks it's better than the Force RS they currently own.
> I
> > know there's a 3 pedal upgrade coming out (yes it has a clutch) but that
> > will put you over $175. Currently it's $139 for the wheel and $59 for
the
> > pedals.

> > --
> > Joe Marques

> > > Hey y'all, I'm wheel shopping and looking to spend $150-175, should I
> just
> > > order a MOMO, or is there anything else comparable available now? TSW
> > would
> > > be nice, but they're twice what I can spend. Are all wheels these days
> > using
> > > pots? Or are digital wheels truly digital, ie: solid state? I'm
> currently
> > > using a Thrustmaster SuperSport with paddles, it's best feature is
split
> > > axis for gas/brake, and not much else. I'd like some software which
> would
> > > allow the buttons to be mapped to keystroke combos, say, shift-r to
get
> me
> > > back in a straight car, or esc-enter to leave track in N4. Finally,
> since
> > > I'm spending MY money here, I'd like it not to be a total piece of
***
> > :^)
> > > Any and all ideas/opinions considered, TIA, Ed

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:09:13

Pierre -

Try http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Cheers,

SB

> Hi Tom,

> Do you have a link for the BRD system?

> Thanks,
> -pierre

> > Ed..

> > Why not look at getting one of the entry-level BRD wheels? They will give
> > you the look and feel of real racing components (metal) and their wheels are
> > upgradeable (they even have trade-in programs). You can add and build up
> > your racing wheel/pedal system as your budget allows. They are the only
> > wheel on the market designed, just to do that! You can ask a few guys who
> > run them in VROC, what they think of them for "racing" and lap improvement.
> > You will find no better sim racing controls for that....including the TSW or
> > ECCI systems. Spending $150 on plastic and "game/arcade" systems....to me
> > is a bigger waste of money, unless you are not a serious sim racer.

> > Take a look at BRD at least, Ed. They deserve to be on your shopping list,
> > I think.

> > Tom

> > > Hey y'all, I'm wheel shopping and looking to spend $150-175, should I just
> > > order a MOMO, or is there anything else comparable available now? TSW
> > would
> > > be nice, but they're twice what I can spend. Are all wheels these days
> > using
> > > pots? Or are digital wheels truly digital, ie: solid state? I'm currently
> > > using a Thrustmaster SuperSport with paddles, it's best feature is split
> > > axis for gas/brake, and not much else. I'd like some software which would
> > > allow the buttons to be mapped to keystroke combos, say, shift-r to get me
> > > back in a straight car, or esc-enter to leave track in N4. Finally, since
> > > I'm spending MY money here, I'd like it not to be a total piece of ***
> > :^)
> > > Any and all ideas/opinions considered, TIA, Ed

by **Joe Marque** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:20:28

I must disagree since quality is a function of cost for good companies.
Logitech is a about as solid as you can get in terms of overall hardware
quality. I don't think the crappy plastic wheel was a QA issue, I think it
was a cost compromise. The LWFF is a fine wheel that retailed for $179
(street price $150 for a while then low $100's). Mine still performs
flawlessly. I got what I paid for and enjoy it. I suspect they found this
market way to thin and aimed at the sub-$100 price point. There's no free
lunch so they had to cut the full soft red wheel, the nice paddles, and the
cable driven motor. I bet the reduction of weight alone had a great cost
savings given shipping weight costs to distributors or retailers (the LWFF
is easily 40% heavier than the GP). Unfortunately, I think they aimed too
low with the GP and hurt their reputation a bit. I think they are still
capable of much better.

Logitech, as with any capable manufacturer, probably has the intellectual
capital and manufacturing capability to build a $1000 wheel that will blow
our doors off. All metal, 3 pedals, industrial pots, etc. They'd also lose
a boat load of cash on it since sales would not exceed development and
manufacturing costs.

I do think Logitech is rethinking their strategy for the $120+ market,
especially after so many PS2 buyers laid out $100 for the crappy plastic
wheel. Maybe the $150-175 market is large enough to serve. Figure the
Force GP cost Logitech $30-40 to manufacture. Let's say the MOMO cost $60+
(I know these are estimates but they're probably fair, at least
proportionally). I think doubling ones production cost adds a tremendous
amount of quality to a product. Especially now when the R&D for FF is
already paid for completely.

I do agree they need to earn our trust but not for quality. They need to
demonstrate they have a sensible marketing strategy and can delivering value
with the MOMO wheel.

--
Joe Marques

by **Jussi Lassi** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 16:57:40

So why not use pedals from the TSW2 and wheel from LWFF? Should work in
GPL just fine...

Jussi

by **Iain Mille** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 20:25:33

I just picked up a TM Ferrari FF wheel on Saturday - so far it passed the
principle tests!

a) It works in GPL
b) it works in GP3

It was easy to set up & configure & I think there is more that can be done
in terms of fine tuning how the FF is working. Other than that it seems very
precise & easy to work with. I like all the different buttons & paddles it
has in addition to the stick shifter which makes it easy to configure in an
"appropiate" formation for different games (i.e. using paddle shifters in
GPL would be all "wrong" and conversely using a stick shift in GP3 wouldn't
be right either!)

For the money it seems like a reasonable piece of kit. Only complaint so far
is that that brake pedal is way too light (much lighter than my old TM F1
(Nascar) wheel - but I expect there is something I can do about that.

That said the dual hinged pedals are nice.]

rgds

I.

by **Thor** » Tue, 23 Oct 2001 22:17:06

Lets hope so....but their marketing ppl may be looking at Thrustmaster
at the moment... In Denmark u can buy a Thrustmaster FF wheel for the
Playstation2 for about 28-29 USD.
We've often seen, that companies follow the "strategy" of a competing
company for a while to "not loose" their market...:(

TSW and others also makes money selling their products, and I'm
convinced that a company like Logitech _can_ and _will_ make good
quality products, when they find out, that the market for quality
hardware is wide enough. Hope they haven't lost too much until that
day... BTW. I'm thinking _deep_ about the Momo-wheel..::)

--
Med venlig hilsen / Best regards
Thore Sorensen - DK-2700 Bronshoj

by **Joe Marque** » Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:37:15

You're absolutely right, it works fine. I did it for a while but I just
don't have the space to connect both wheels at the same time any longer.

--
Joe Marques

> >If GPL were my primary interest I think I'd be back to my TSW2 by now.
> >I still haven't matched my best overall lap achieved using my TSW2. The
> >LWFF feels great in GPL, I'm just a better driver with the TSW2. I
> >attribute the difference to the braking capability with the far superior
> >pedals on the TSW2.

> So why not use pedals from the TSW2 and wheel from LWFF? Should work in
> GPL just fine...

> Jussi

by **Andi Col** » Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:00:56

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Andi.

> Hi Tom,

> Do you have a link for the BRD system?

> Thanks,
> -pierre

> > Ed..

> > Why not look at getting one of the entry-level BRD wheels? They will
give
> > you the look and feel of real racing components (metal) and their wheels
are
> > upgradeable (they even have trade-in programs). You can add and build
up
> > your racing wheel/pedal system as your budget allows. They are the only
> > wheel on the market designed, just to do that! You can ask a few guys
who
> > run them in VROC, what they think of them for "racing" and lap
improvement.
> > You will find no better sim racing controls for that....including the
TSW or
> > ECCI systems. Spending $150 on plastic and "game/arcade" systems....to
me
> > is a bigger waste of money, unless you are not a serious sim racer.

> > Take a look at BRD at least, Ed. They deserve to be on your shopping
list,
> > I think.

> > Tom

> > > Hey y'all, I'm wheel shopping and looking to spend $150-175, should I
just
> > > order a MOMO, or is there anything else comparable available now? TSW
> > would
> > > be nice, but they're twice what I can spend. Are all wheels these days
> > using
> > > pots? Or are digital wheels truly digital, ie: solid state? I'm
currently
> > > using a Thrustmaster SuperSport with paddles, it's best feature is
split
> > > axis for gas/brake, and not much else. I'd like some software which
would
> > > allow the buttons to be mapped to keystroke combos, say, shift-r to
get me
> > > back in a straight car, or esc-enter to leave track in N4. Finally,
since
> > > I'm spending MY money here, I'd like it not to be a total piece of
***
> > :^)
> > > Any and all ideas/opinions considered, TIA, Ed

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