rec.autos.simulators

Organization: New Mexico State University, Las Cruces, NM
Distribution:

:       Well, Mike, I can only post logical discussions and debates in so many
: places before I just want to make it simple.......

Keeping that thought pattern,

Could who ever is working on the vote process please post some sort of
charter that will help those interested to vote.  Something that
describes exactly what the split will produce and if more than one split
which groups will result etc...

For instance will there be several new groups like
r.a.s.nascar
r.a.s.F1
r.a.s.GP
etc...,

or will this result in just one more group called r.a.s.nascar?

Personally, I feel that a several group split off would be good leaving
intact r.a.s for the more general topic discussions that overlap all auto
sims like hardware, new product announcements/upgrades, as well as house
discussions of the less popular products.

If others feel this is too much of a move then I would like to toss up
once again the idea of r.a.s.online rather than r.a.s.nacar since it
appears that what really prompted all this was the added weight of the
Nascar Online service.  At least the "learn how to drive jerk" posts will
have a place to go, and non-long distance charge chatting can prevail
between the drivers of the leagues and such.

Just another opinion,
Matt

: It is probable there will be a vote date in the not too distant future.

: Ed Martin, Tony Johns, Richard Roddy and others should be getting back
: to me tomorrow and helping with the assistance I requested of them.
: Even if I hadn't started the ball rolling it seems given the response
: I've received that r.a.s.n is likely very soon.

: Those of you in ICR and GP2 I am sorry if this appears elitest, however,
: given the numbers I am looking at in support of this new group, it
: appears there has been an under-lying desire for it and no one spoke up
: until recently.

Thomas, I applaud you in your efforts to do the "right thing".  However,
it doesn't quite work that way.  First of all there is a required period
of discussion which is to take place.

Has there been some cabal cooking up some sorta USENET revolution that I
wasn't invited to here?  I have seen some discussion about this issue,
but until very recently, none of the official "leg-work" was put into
motion.  You make it sound as if you have become Judge, Jury &
Executioner on this matter.  Please do your homework on the process and
stop spreading propaganda about the impending arrival of a "Brave New
World Order".  Let's follow the proper procedure and "discuss" the
issues at hand.  

One question, what reputable polling firm have you retained for your
"numbers" guaranteeing inevitable victory?
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hi Tony,

The key issue for me is having information which is USEFUL to a cross-
section of the r.a.s. "community" under their noses, without having to
be looked for, and other information elsewhere.

The "Hawaii" posts have died down somewhat, but I fully expect they will
reach fever pitch with NASCAR2/NRL later in the year. It did get a bit
tedious reading the nth "who was right" post - this stuff needs a
separate group.

Where I undecided is about splitting up the actual SIM posts. Several
fans of NASCAR have bought GP2 simply because they saw it in Sim Racing
News - they had no idea what it was or that it was even coming out. Now
if someone is only interested in F1 and subscribes only to "r.a.s.f1",
they may well miss completely ICR2/3/? and lose out on a great
experience, or at the very least miss out on a lot of info which would
enhance the purchase they had made.

I wouldn't think splitting the group would have any effect on this.
"They work for Papyrus ergo they must know all about ICR2" seems to be
the philosophy adopted. I'm sorry to say I have to agree with Ed,
although it's a big loss for us - "no info = no flaming".

This is total BS and a waste of time. The latest game is always going to
be a step forward from previous ones, and if it isn't then it has kind
of missed the boat. However, take one look at the Quake and Duke
newsgroups (asbestos underwear on beforehand). Those guys could flame
for their country! Is there a category in the Olympics yet? Sign 'em up!
The problem is "sneak attacks" into the other newsgroups saying "XXXX
sucks!" and then sit back to watch the flame war begin. I hope we're a
bit bigger than that...! :)

*IF* they know they are looking for this info - I happen upon a lot of
stuff by accident, and that is my only concern.

For me, I will read all of the sim newsgroups so I have no problem with
any subdivisions. I just wonder what everyone else thinks, and if people
will miss out on things they would otherwise have enjoyed because of the
split?

Cheers!
John

PS - Does that mean you actually READ all of that stuff about a new
newsgroup?! Wheeeeeew! I thought I was going to have to ;)  Thanks Tony!
                     _________________________________
         __    _____|                                 |_____    __
________|  |__|    :|           John Wallace          |     |__|  |________

  \    :|  |::|    :|        Team WW Racing TSW       |     |::|  |     /
    >  :|  |::|    :|_________________________________|     |::|  |   <
  /    :|__|::|____/       * Sim Racing News *         \____|::|__|     \
/______:/  \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/  \._____\
               http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

-l
"My ears are still ringing."

__
Undertoad: http://www.racesimcentral.net/~bumgarls/ "Klaatu barada nictow" * "Usenet
is like a herd of performing elephants with diarrhea -- massive, difficult to
redirect, awe-inspiring, entertaining, and a source of mind-boggling amounts

loves you, but everyone else thinks you're an ***  * Usenet is forever

/===================================================\
| John Simmons (Redneck Techno-Biker)               |

| http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/index.html   |
|===================================================|
| IGN #12 Zerex American Eagle Motorsports Ford     |
| http://www2.connectnet.com/users/jms/aemmain.html |
| Hawaii NickName - AEMwest                         |
|===================================================|
| 93 FLSTC - 54,000 miles and counting                      |
| Harley Scum Biker (tm) #14                                            |
\===================================================/

: If others feel this is too much of a move then I would like to toss up
: once again the idea of r.a.s.online rather than r.a.s.nacar since it
: appears that what really prompted all this was the added weight of the
: Nascar Online service.  At least the "learn how to drive jerk" posts will
: have a place to go, and non-long distance charge chatting can prevail
: between the drivers of the leagues and such.

If, there needs to be a split this is the one that I could get behind.
I still feel that the discussions over the various "disciplines" still
have more in common than differences.  I do though see more differences
with the "online" conversations, than common factors with individual sim
products.  If one is trying to set up their car for Hawaii, they could
still post to r.a.s., but then again, there are differences.  Since
multi.exe has been patched to fix the "weight transfer" bug in the stand
alone NASCAR.

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

******************************************
Or put it up to a vote RIGHT HERE AND NOW:
******************************************

Do you want:

A) REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS
   REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS.NASCAR

B) REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS
   REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS.NASCAR
   REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS.F1
   REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS.ICR2

C) REC.AUTOS.SIMULATORS left as it is

Votes are taken by a 3rd party and not via this newsgroup.

I don't really think this will solve Ed's concerns. There are going to be
some jerks in any group and unless there's a FAQ your going to get
questions repeated.  And, on the other hand, it will almost certainly add
cross-posting problems.  

The only people I see this benefitting are those who are interested in
only 1 particular sim.  The rest of us, assuming we can get our server to
carry the new groups, will have to jump back and forth between them.  I
realize that this is not a big deal, but it also doesn't seem that
difficult to skip those posts you don't want to read.

Just one more "Me Too".

I think you should perhaps try GP2 before classing it as a "kiddie
game". The driving model arguably puts every other game you mentioned
into the shade....

                     _________________________________
         __    _____|                                 |_____    __
________|  |__|    :|           John Wallace          |     |__|  |________

  \    :|  |::|    :|        Team WW Racing TSW       |     |::|  |     /
    >  :|  |::|    :|_________________________________|     |::|  |   <
  /    :|__|::|____/       * Sim Racing News *         \____|::|__|     \
/______:/  \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm \::/  \._____\
               http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~harmon/simnews

I know those in support of r.a.s.nascar have their own agenda(s), which is fine
with me.  But since I enjoy NASCAR just as much as the other sims I play,
there's no need for me to approve the split because it wouldn't be of any
benefit to me.

The only reason I haven't spoken out against the creation of r.a.s.nascar
(until now) is because I didn't want to post a bunch of "Me too!" replies after
Mike Carver's messages.  Mike has been pretty much saying what I've been
thinking about the issue, and I was only planning on waiting until the call for
votes was announced to make my opinion count.  But, since you want to hear the
voices of others that are against r.a.s.nascar, here I am.

Mr. Retkowski's call for discussion has only been out for what, less than a
week?  How can you expect everyone to voice his/her opinion in such a short
amount of time?

And now I hear that Mr. Retkowski has withdrawn his CFD because Tony Johns
posted a CFD first.  Tony's CFD hasn't even shown up on my server yet.  Kyle,
Usenet is not quite instantaneous yet.  Give the discussion some time to form.

Well, if you want to hear the other people against r.a.s.nascar make their
opinions known, and people like you and Mike have already eloquently typed the
reasons for-or-against the formation of r.a.s.nascar, all this discussion will
degenerate into is a bunch of "Yeah, I agree" responses if all the opinions of
all the interested parties have to be heard.

--
+------------------+--------------------------------------------+
|  G. Warren Abao  | Official BBL Jacksonville Jaguars Website: |

+------------------++------------------------+------------------+
| SPOOOOOOOOOOON!!! |  BBL Jacksonville 1-0  | IFL Chicago 11-6 |
+-------------------+------------------------+------------------+

   I mostly road race, ICR2, and someday F1GP2 and Starting grid.  but I
usually read a couple of NASCAR and Hawaii posts each day.  To me, a spit
is inconvenient.  It's easy to skip over NASCAR, Hawaii, NFS, Destruction
Derby and other topics that don't interest me.  

   The "Where's F1GP2" and "I have F1GP2" posts are a bump that each new
sim will have, and should not be considered in this discussion.

   The only reason I've seen to support this split is that Ed Martin
is justifiably pissed over some threads.  He tried to be of service to
ICR and NASCAR racers.  His expertise is with NASCAR, and I would hate
for those of you who race NASCAR to loose this resource.  Ed, I ask you
again, does you continued participation here require the creation of
r.a.s.nascar?

   It is important to some participants of NASCAR to have their own
group.  If I am convinced that most NASCAR racers want this, I don't
think we should chain them to a newsgroup they feel fails to meet
their needs.  

   What I am hearing from advocates is, "It will be great, we'll each
have our own group, NASCAR, ICR, F1".  Whoa there fella!  You see an
advantage in a NASCAR split, don't assume the rest of us want an ICR/F1
split.  

   Unless you hear that us road racers want each road race sim to have
its own group, please limit your efforts to r.a.s.nascar.  

                                                                Thanks
                                                                Larry

--
+------------------+--------------------------------------------+
|  G. Warren Abao  | Official BBL Jacksonville Jaguars Website: |

+------------------++------------------------+------------------+
| SPOOOOOOOOOOON!!! |  BBL Jacksonville 1-0  | IFL Chicago 11-6 |
+-------------------+------------------------+------------------+

I vote YES to creating a rec.autos.simulators.nascar group.  Again, I vote
YES and I urge everyone who wants to have discussion based SOLELY on NASCAR
Racing to also put in an affirmative vote.

Kirn Cromur