rec.autos.simulators

Selig Sucks

Scott B. Huste

Selig Sucks

by Scott B. Huste » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 07:55:48

Yeah.. I sure hope he doesn't have to throw more than 25 pitches in a game
during the regular season.  It would be a shame to ruin a supposed
professional athlete that way.

--
Scott B. Husted
"PA-Scott"
ICQ# 4395450
http://www.racesimcentral.net/



> Which pitcher's arm did you want to sacrifice for a meaningless game? The
> Phillies kind of like their young pitcher.

> David G Fisher



> > Sorry - should of prefaced that with an "OT:"



> > > Game over.

Mitch Alatorr

Selig Sucks

by Mitch Alatorr » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 08:00:45

No I'm no rocket scientist there Jason but I do recall the games always
being 9 innings :)  So they stand around for an hr more.  Compared to my 8+
hrs on my feet a day I'd trade :)




> > Just not cool for the fans regardless of *arm wear*.  Hell it wasn't to
> >long ago pitchers threw 300+ inning a year and it was quite common.  No
we
> >have a bunch of primadonna millionaires that whine/cry about everything.
> >Put the frreakin managers out there to pitch, but finish the game!!

> The biggest reason pitchers throw fewer innings now is because of the
> length of the games (which needs to be and can easily be fixed if
> baseball had a commissioner who understood the game).

> If you go back through history, you'll see that pitchers as a whole
> throw just as long, time-wise, as they did 20 years ago when a typical
> game was 2/3 as long.  The problem is that an average pitcher's arm
> tightens up after 2 to 2 and a half hours, and I can't remember the
> last time I saw a game that was under 3.

> There's a great quote by Jim Kaat, who was known for working quickly,
> where he explained that his arm turned into a pumpkin after 2 hours.

> Jason

Tim Mise

Selig Sucks

by Tim Mise » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:21:51


Of course, when pitching 300+ innings a year was common, a 95 mph fastball
was unheard of.  Nowadays a 90+ mph fastball is just about a prerequisite to
pitching in the show.

Wasn't it Cito Gaston who held out Mike Mussina in the early 90's Allstar
game in case the game went into extra innings and then caught hell for not
playing him?

-Tim

Tim Mise

Selig Sucks

by Tim Mise » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:32:26

The problem is is that there is no perfect solution.  Each team has about 10
pitchers so each manager in the past few years has used about 1 pitcher an
inning to try to get most of them a chance to play.  If you started having
each pitcher pitch 2 innings each, then half of them wouldn't play.
Obviously, the fans want and pay to see them play.

Instead of asking an all star position player to pitch and risk injury, how
about having a batting practice pitcher or a pitch machine do the pitching
for the rest of the game?  Or maybe play the extra innings needing 6 outs
each half inning to retire the side?

The point is that they need to have a gimmick rule to break the tie or I
believe they should just let it end a tie.  It's only an exhibition game
anyway and I'd rather see all the pitchers pitch then hold out half of them
for the unlikely chance of extra innings.

-Tim




> >That would be a dumb move.  Pitching is very specialized as far as arm
> >motion and for a non pitcher to pitch, it could cause an injury.  Unless
> >they just go up and throw.  But is that really what fans want to see?

> And you think maybe the fans wanted to see a game end in a tie? You
> know how much it costs to attend a major league game now days?

> It's rare, but I've seen players from other positions come in to
> pitch, and I can't remember any being out with injuries because of it.
> I'm not saying it would have been pretty. Just trying to figure out
> some way this game could have been completed.

>                   Tim Wortman
>       North American Simulation Series
>                www.nasscar.com

Tim Mise

Selig Sucks

by Tim Mise » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 09:34:43

My only beef was waiting until the bottom half of the inning to make the
decision.  They should have decided that before the top of the 11th so it
would have been fair for both sides.  Making up the rule that can only
benefit the NL at that point was just unfair.

-Tim


> So they should just let the pitchers pitch their arms out?  I don't think
> so.

> You can argue that maybe they should not be concerned with getting every
> player in the game.  This way, they would have extra pitching at the end.
> Or maybe just make it a maximum of 10 or 11 innings no matter what.

> I think it was bad what happened but it was more of the circumstances.  I
> don't think Selig had a choice.  He made the right call in that situation.
> Not a great one but had to be made.



> > Game over.

jason moy

Selig Sucks

by jason moy » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:02:35

=p

Seriously, when a pitcher warms up, he has 2 to 2 and a half hours
until his arm tightens up (unless he's Curt Schilling, who is
apparently superman).

There are essentially 4 different divisions in baseball history for
pitcher stamina.

1870-1890 - pitchers often threw 80 games a year and completed all of
them.  On the other hand, most of them burned out within 4-5 seasons.
A pretty scary era to be a pitcher.

1890-1950 - pre big TV - Pitchers threw about 40 games a year, and
completed a little over half of their starts.  Games tended to be
about 2 hours long because a.) games had to be completed before
darkness, and it was an umpire's job to keep the game moving along
and b.) few if any commercial breaks

1960-1980 - baseball goes prime time - Umps still did a great job of
keeping the pace of the game going (probably out of tradition/habit),
and commercial breaks were on average a full minute shorter than they
are now.  Games tended to be in the 2 to 2 and a half hour range.
Pitchers threw 30-40 games and completed about half of them, with the
exception of a 2 or 3 year period in the early 70's when a handful of
managers let their pitchers throw 300+ IP.  You've got to love
managerial trends that make no sense (sort of like the "let's use 2-3
relievers in the same inning" trend in the AL now).

1980-present - Not so much a constant period as a gradual evolution.
It started with longer commercial breaks, then umpires losing control
of the pace of the game (people don't realize that an umpire has to
grant a player a timeout, it's not an automatic "step out of the
batter's box" thing, even though it might as well be now), and
currently is being taken even further by constant pitching changes
(which of course require full 3 minute commercial breaks in order to
let the pitcher warm up - makes you wonder he's been doing in the
bullpen for 15 minutes).  Games in 2002 average over 3 hours in
length, and an average pitcher throws about 6 innings per start, or 2
hours of that, before his arm turns into jelly.

For further reference, read the "Jim Kaat" entry in the top-100
pitchers section in the New Historical Baseball Abstract.  Good stuff.

The thing that pisses me off the most about the constant timeouts
bullshit, is not just that it constantly interrupts the action and
increases the length of the games, but that it defeats the entire idea
that hitting is timing and pitching is destroying a hitter's timing.
Now, a hitter can call time literally as a pitcher is starting his
windup, making it impossible for a pitcher to get into a rhythm.  What
kind of ***is that?

Jason



>No I'm no rocket scientist there Jason but I do recall the games always
>being 9 innings :)  So they stand around for an hr more.  Compared to my 8+
>hrs on my feet a day I'd trade :)





>> > Just not cool for the fans regardless of *arm wear*.  Hell it wasn't to
>> >long ago pitchers threw 300+ inning a year and it was quite common.  No
>we
>> >have a bunch of primadonna millionaires that whine/cry about everything.
>> >Put the frreakin managers out there to pitch, but finish the game!!

>> The biggest reason pitchers throw fewer innings now is because of the
>> length of the games (which needs to be and can easily be fixed if
>> baseball had a commissioner who understood the game).

>> If you go back through history, you'll see that pitchers as a whole
>> throw just as long, time-wise, as they did 20 years ago when a typical
>> game was 2/3 as long.  The problem is that an average pitcher's arm
>> tightens up after 2 to 2 and a half hours, and I can't remember the
>> last time I saw a game that was under 3.

>> There's a great quote by Jim Kaat, who was known for working quickly,
>> where he explained that his arm turned into a pumpkin after 2 hours.

>> Jason

Tim

Selig Sucks

by Tim » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 12:10:23

On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 22:36:16 GMT, "Frankie Howerd"


>Come on, why should the game be completed? This is an exhibition, and the
>point is to watch the best players in baseball play the game. Do you really
>think people in the crowd were desperate to see 'their league' win?

Um, considering the amount of debri sent to the field after the
announcement, me thinks so.  :)

                  Tim Wortman
      North American Simulation Series
               www.nasscar.com

JTBur

Selig Sucks

by JTBur » Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:49:41

How about any of the pitchers that threw about 10 pitches total.



> Which pitcher's arm did you want to sacrifice for a meaningless game? The
> Phillies kind of like their young pitcher.

> David G Fisher



> > Sorry - should of prefaced that with an "OT:"



> > > Game over.

Eldre

Selig Sucks

by Eldre » Sun, 14 Jul 2002 08:09:06


writes:





>> >Which pitcher's arm did you want to sacrifice for a meaningless game? The
>> >Phillies kind of like their young pitcher.

>> If the game has deteriorated to the point where guys can't pitch for more
>than
>> 2 innings, then we may as well quit now... :(

>Your missing the point.  He had plenty of rest before.  But if his team
>wants him to pitch on Thursday, then he can't go over a certain number of
>innings and then 2 days later go out and start a game with the expectation
>of going the whole game.

No, I'm not missing anything.  You have a rest before the game, and a rest
after the game.  That's why it's called the All-Star *Break*.  And I *still*
say pitchers who are *supposed* to be able to throw for a whole game should be
able to pitch for more than 2 innings...  Again, if they CAN'T, then there's
something else wrong with the whole sport.  I stand by my statement.

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

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Bob

Selig Sucks

by Bob » Mon, 15 Jul 2002 23:27:04

It is an allstar game. it is an exhibition game. They bring the the top 4 or
5 pictures and let them throw for 2 innings each. Who cares if it ends in a
tie? Of couse a picture can throw more than two innings. BUT they can't throw
two innings take an hour break and throw two more innings. Well they could
but they would not be able to throw as good as they normally can, and they
would be greatly increasing the possibility of injury.

--
Bob

Eldre

Selig Sucks

by Eldre » Tue, 16 Jul 2002 07:46:08


writes:

Eh, who cares anymore?  They're going to strike anyway.  Making millions of
dollars playing a kids game for 9 months out of the year isn't worth their
effort.  Yes, I realize there are other issues involved, but that's what the
typical fan struggling just to make ends meet sees...

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett
My .sig file is in the shop for repairs...

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