rec.autos.simulators

by MS » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>TO LEAN THE BIKE RIGHT you push forward on the right bar actually steering
>LEFT. this will shift the weight to the right .RESULT IS THE LEAN TO THE
>RIGHT

>left is the same,but opposite.

The way I see this is that if your gonna turn right, first you turn just a
little to the left to start the bike leaning to the right. Once the bike is
leaning then you steer into the turn. Turning right, into the turn, makes the
bike wanna fall left. But since the bike is leaning right, it also wants to
fall right. You have to find the balance point where the 2 forces counter each
other.
I've been riding bikes since I was a kid
and have had this same conversation with people. At first I didn't know what
to belive so I consciously observed how I turn. Believe what you want, but if
you keep turning left to go right your right side is gonna kiss the pavement.

>--
>Kevin Anderson

>ICQ # 6769389
>Oscar FB Div. 10
>BTTW

>>>HUH ??? You mean when I'm racing my GSX-R600, or the YZF 1000, I should
>>>move my bars to the LEFT when I want to make a right hand turn ????? And
>>>when I'm on the road on my GSX-R1100, I should do the same thing???

--
Note my real email address is day AT net-connect.net

by **Kevin Anderso** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

-

pavement.

I agree you don't keep turning right, just to get the turn started. once in
the turn you should have to steer at all, unless to correct your line

by **The Grandad Biker from Hel** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

> -

> >On Tue, 17 Mar 1998 07:10:18 -0500, Kevin Anderson

> >The way I see this is that if your gonna turn right, first you turn
> just a
> >little to the left to start the bike leaning to the right. Once the
> bike is
> >leaning then you steer into the turn. Turning right, into the turn,
> makes
> the
> >bike wanna fall left. But since the bike is leaning right, it also
> wants to
> >fall right. You have to find the balance point where the 2 forces
> counter
> each
> >other.
> >I've been riding bikes since I was a kid
> >and have had this same conversation with people. At first I didn't
> know
> what
> >to belive so I consciously observed how I turn. Believe what you
> want, but
> if
> >you keep turning left to go right your right side is gonna kiss the
> pavement.

> I agree you don't keep turning right, just to get the turn started.
> once in
> the turn you should have to steer at all, unless to correct your line

Ah, you mean, if I'm going right and I want to go more right, I steer
right. Right ?

(btw, why didnt you respond to my criticisms of your 'physics' point?

GBH.

by **Kevin Anderso** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

I give up trying to explain my point. this is my last post on this subject.

I know I am right and you are all wrong <G>
--
Kevin Anderson

ICQ # 6769389
Oscar FB Div. 10
BTTW

by **Motle** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>>I just have to get my 2 cents in here. If you're going in a straight
line,
>>and you pull the bars right without leaning, you are deffinately gonna
lean
>>right. Abate teaches this as a quick way to turn to avoid an accident.

>WRONG, you are gonna go left, unless you doing 5 mph

You are correct. I said right and meant left. I ***ed up. You can
replace either "right" with "left". As I said I ***ED UP.

>>
>>If you are already in a left turn you will find yourself pushing on
the
>>right bar, amount of pressure depending on the turn and on the amount
of
>>'trail' that the bike has.

>WRONG AGAIN, once in a turn, the bike will continue to turn without any
input

Yeah, the bike will continue to turn, but you push on the bar to keep
the wheel from turning more. As I said before it all depends on speed and
trail. Maybe you don't ride as hard as I do.

>>
>>We all agree that leaning is the biggest part of turning, right?

> OK, the bike turns around it's center of gravity,

>OK sit on
>>your bike, don't touch the bars, and lean to the left. Because of the
>>'trail' the front wheel will fall to the left. When you are cornering,
(on
>>the street, not on the track) that is why you must apply pressure to
the
>>left bar- Pushing the bar to the right.

>at speeds less then 10 mph

I said just sit on it. I didn't say go somewhere. The point is
geometry.(sp)

>> On the track you have to turn faster
>>and tighter. That's why you use the Abate technique I was talking
about
>>before.
>>
>>"Trail" is explained at: http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>>
>>So I guess my point is that both sides are right- It's just different
>>conditions.
>>
>>And I also suppose that it doesn't matter much to me at the moment
because
>>my current ride is a VW powered trike. Gotta turn left to go left. : )
But
>>I've ridden everything from a Garelli to a Ninja to a CB750four to a
Sporty
>>to a FXR to a Wide Glide to a... Well you get the picture...
>>
>>Just my 2 cents...
>>
.>>motley

by **Motle** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>You only countersteer to start the turn or change direction... Once
>you're actually in the turn, your steering is going to be in the
>"proper" direction.

>Suppose you're in a right-left chicane... the quickest way to go from
>the right turn to the left is to tug on the RIGHT bar when you want to
>change direction. It's counter-intuitive, but that's the way it works.

>Trips

I think you just explained it better than anybody else. The line "You only
countersteer to start the turn or change direction... " is something that
has been left out so far. If you yank the right bar toward you and don't do
anything else you will fall on your LEFT side. Pulling the bar gets the
leaning going on much quicker. Once you're leaning you can ride into the
left turn faster than you would if you just turned.

ABATE teaches this!!!

motley

by **Motle** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>-

>>The way I see this is that if your gonna turn right, first you turn just a
>>little to the left to start the bike leaning to the right. Once the bike
is
>>leaning then you steer into the turn. Turning right, into the turn, makes
>the
>>bike wanna fall left. But since the bike is leaning right, it also wants
to
>>fall right. You have to find the balance point where the 2 forces counter
>each
>>other.
>>I've been riding bikes since I was a kid
>>and have had this same conversation with people. At first I didn't know
>what
>>to belive so I consciously observed how I turn. Believe what you want, but
>if
>>you keep turning left to go right your right side is gonna kiss the
>pavement.

>I agree you don't keep turning right, just to get the turn started. once in
>the turn you should have to steer at all, unless to correct your line

Exactly.

motley

by **Motle** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

I still think that it has a ton to do with the conditions. If I was on my
dirtbike turning right, and I wanted to go more right, I would break the
back end loose, back off a little (till it hooks back up) and then gun it.
On a street bike on the edge of control I would steer JUST A LITTLE FOR A
SPLIT SECOND to the left to get more lean into it. On a street bike just
going around a normal turn I would just lean more.

I've never been on a superbike going 190, so I can't speak for that. But I
still think you both are right- under different conditions.

motley

by **Marc J. Nelso** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

> I agree you don't keep turning right, just to get the turn started. once in
> the turn you should have to steer at all, unless to correct your line

More effort for sure, but as long as you're in a turn (until you've
reached point of apex), you're in constant (if imperceivable) opposite
lock. The easiest way to illustrate is to strap a video camera to the
tank, and ride at a comfortable pace on your favorite road. =)

Cheers!

Marc

--

(please remove '_*_' when replying)

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by **Mikes Design** » Fri, 20 Mar 1998 04:00:00

I was wondering when someone would at least suggest these folks who think a
2 wheeled bike is " steered" like a trike would be pointed to Keith Code's
excellent books or videos. Listen anyone who thinks you turn a bike's
handlebars left to turn left at anything above a walking pace is just
confused. Whether you realize it or not IT HAPPENS BACKWARDS its a
indisputable FACT.
As far as leaning and trying to hold the bike upright well your confusing
dirt and asphalt. If your road racing and trying to hold the bike vertical
well you could be going a whole lot faster once you learn to turn proper.
Actually like Keith describes in his book it's our parents fault :-)
They start us on tricycles where we learn to turn left to go left. then we
get a bicycle and crash our brains out and everyone tells us it is because
we need to learn to balance. Actually it was because bicycles also counter
steer. :-0

Mike

by **Dougla** » Sat, 21 Mar 1998 04:00:00

You are correct in your description of steering. I my self have argued with
people about it, so i know how you feel. Countersteering is a very simple
principle, but people have a hard time understanding it. I have a feeling that
the others will try it out this summer and be humbled.

doug

> I give up trying to explain my point. this is my last post on this subject.

> I know I am right and you are all wrong <G>
> --
> Kevin Anderson

> ICQ # 6769389
> Oscar FB Div. 10
> BTTW

by **Mike Guntho** » Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:00:00

>I think you just explained it better than anybody else. The line "You only
>countersteer to start the turn or change direction... " is something that
>has been left out so far.
>motley

Ahem, I quote from my original post, complete with original emphasis;

"The point of Kevin's post, and he is correct, is that to *initiate* a
turn, ..."

So, we don't have a dispute afterall! ;-)

Mike

by **Torkel B?rjeso** » Sun, 22 Mar 1998 04:00:00

Hi!

I read a good description of this once and it goes like this:

Imagine that you are riding straight forward. Next to stop due to friction
this is the easiest thing for the bike to do, that is keep on rolling
straight forward.

When you steer to the left you are indeed trying to do just that but since
the bike wants to continue straight forward it compensates by leaning
rapidly to the right. Now the bike is leaning to the right and by centering
the handlebars it will keep that lean and we are turning - to the right! If
we want to turn more - that is lean more - we push even more at the right
hand.
To me countersteering is simply how to make the bike to lean as fast as
possible.

See also http://home.earthlink.net/~jamesdavis/TIP048.html for a more
correct explanation involving gyroscopic motion and such...

/Torkel
<big snip>

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