rec.autos.simulators

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

Bill Bollinge

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Bill Bollinge » Thu, 02 May 2002 04:23:48

Hmmm, did I see in the race this weekend that a racer could pull away at
California.  Based upon N2002, I would have thought it impossible in a
draft.

The draft model in N2002 is majorily messed up.  Open ONLINE setup race now,
you can go an entire tire run and see 15+ people within 2-3 seconds of each
other.  Not very realistic.

Tip to Papyrus:  Yah... Fixed setup racing is fun and all, however, there
are still people who do enjoy making setups.  LOL - I can still remember a
conversation I had in Daytona where an employee to remain nameless said, "We
want to make it more like FIXED SETUP racing, because it is more exciting".
Well, they got their wish because what is the point anymore with open setups
at these large tracks?!?!?!?!?

Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
www.iracingfx.com

Blak

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Blak » Thu, 02 May 2002 09:11:32

| Hmmm, did I see in the race this weekend that a racer could pull away at
| California.  Based upon N2002, I would have thought it impossible in a
| draft.
|
| The draft model in N2002 is majorily messed up.  Open ONLINE setup race now,
| you can go an entire tire run and see 15+ people within 2-3 seconds of each
| other.  Not very realistic.
|
| Tip to Papyrus:  Yah... Fixed setup racing is fun and all, however, there
| are still people who do enjoy making setups.  LOL - I can still remember a
| conversation I had in Daytona where an employee to remain nameless said, "We
| want to make it more like FIXED SETUP racing, because it is more exciting".
| Well, they got their wish because what is the point anymore with open setups
| at these large tracks?!?!?!?!?
|
| Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
| www.iracingfx.com
|
|
|
|
|

Joachim Trens

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 02 May 2002 12:28:18

Not the first two faced medals we've seen in racing, and certainly not the
last one either.

I think the main aspect of fixed setup racing - i.e. that you don't need to
spend time and effort creating a setup before you can race on a level basis
with others - is both the greatest advantage and disadvantage of fixed setup
racing.

On one hand, I like fixed setups because without spending much time with
practice, learning the physics or the track, I can just jump into a race and
have fun. For me that's a boon on ovals ( on which I'd never even think of
practicing offline :-)

On the other hand, with fixed setups, without spending much time with
practice, learning the physics or the track, I can just jump into a race and
have fun - or ruin it for everyone else on the track because I don't have a
clue about the track, the physics, my limits or the car.

Of course, nobody prevents me from practicing anyway, but it is my
impression that this 'easy way in' using the fixed setup seduces a lot of
less experienced drivers to jump into races without giving the racing the
thought and attention they'd need to give it in order to make it fun for all
participants.

Achim


...

Philste

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Philste » Thu, 02 May 2002 10:56:16

Well, I wouldn't call myself a totally inexperienced racer, but... I
really can't setup a car worth s%$t. I know how the car handles (loose,
tight, etc) and know what each chassis ajustment is supposed to do, but
each time I tried making changes, I ended up with a messed up car
(perhaps impossible to drive). Thus, I would settle for a fixed setup.

Otherwise, if you run an open setup league (or race or whatever) I find
I end up looking for setups on the net (as are other racers in the
league/race) suitable to stay in the pack. I'd rather squeeze the most
out of a fixed setup and concentrate on race strategy (however limited
they may be).


> Not the first two faced medals we've seen in racing, and certainly not the
> last one either.

> I think the main aspect of fixed setup racing - i.e. that you don't need to
> spend time and effort creating a setup before you can race on a level basis
> with others - is both the greatest advantage and disadvantage of fixed setup
> racing.

> On one hand, I like fixed setups because without spending much time with
> practice, learning the physics or the track, I can just jump into a race and
> have fun. For me that's a boon on ovals ( on which I'd never even think of
> practicing offline :-)

> On the other hand, with fixed setups, without spending much time with
> practice, learning the physics or the track, I can just jump into a race and
> have fun - or ruin it for everyone else on the track because I don't have a
> clue about the track, the physics, my limits or the car.

> Of course, nobody prevents me from practicing anyway, but it is my
> impression that this 'easy way in' using the fixed setup seduces a lot of
> less experienced drivers to jump into races without giving the racing the
> thought and attention they'd need to give it in order to make it fun for all
> participants.

> Achim



> ...
> > ...FIXED SETUP racing ...is more exciting"

--
Philippe "Philster" Sergerie
Joachim Trens

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Joachim Trens » Thu, 02 May 2002 21:49:47

I didn't want to insinuate that only inexperienced rookies use and enjoy
fixed setups (I use N2k2's default ones myself on ovals). I just wanted to
point out that fixed setups among this particular group of sim racers (new
drivers) can lead to them spending less time in getting accustomed to and
acquainted with the simulation, the physics etc. With the consequences we
all see on Sierra.com...

Achim


Gerald Moo

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Gerald Moo » Thu, 02 May 2002 23:12:25


> Hmmm, did I see in the race this weekend that a racer could pull away at
> California.  Based upon N2002, I would have thought it impossible in a
> draft.

I think many of the times when somebody was able to pull away it was
when the cars behind were racing each other instead of drafting.  Just
my impression.

If you're talking about SS racing, I think you are wrong about it
being unrealistic.  I'll assume you mean at tracks where you have to
lift every lap.

What exactly do you think is messed up about the drafting model?  Too
hard to draft, draft effect too pronounced?  Not enough
aero-push/aero-loose?

I don't think the draft is that far off.  I've never driven anything
over 130mph though, so I don't really know.  I think the real problem
here is the fact that in the game, everybody gets the same motor, same
overall power, same torque curve, same reliability and durability,
etc.  Totally unrealistic.  It does make the game more fun though.
Would you really want to race against someone with inherent advantages
(aside from having more skill and setup knowledge) in car handling and
speed?  I wouldn't.

What are you trying to say?  What does this have to do with the
drafting model in NR2002?  If you dont like fixed setup racing, don't
do it.

Gerald

Uncle Feste

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Uncle Feste » Thu, 02 May 2002 23:20:03


> I don't think the draft is that far off.  I've never driven anything
> over 130mph though, so I don't really know.  I think the real problem
> here is the fact that in the game, everybody gets the same motor, same
> overall power, same torque curve, same reliability and durability,
> etc.  Totally unrealistic.  It does make the game more fun though.
> Would you really want to race against someone with inherent advantages
> (aside from having more skill and setup knowledge) in car handling and
> speed?  I wouldn't.

I also think that online racers many times tend to draft more than in
real life.  That will bunch the field up more than with all the fighting
for position.

--

Fester

Hey nobody's perfect, not even myself 8)
     -- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard>  4/15/02

Kerry Gran

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Kerry Gran » Fri, 03 May 2002 00:15:48

He basically is saying that the draft effect is too pronounced. Why make
open setup racing like fixed setup racing? If you want to run a fixed setup
race then run a fixed setup race. Bill is just saying that a "bad" setup can
keep up with a "good" setup because of the draft. In open setup racing it is
all about testing your guts out and finding the tweak that will give you an
extra .1 or .2 a lap. Why bust your ***making a fast setup when the draft
is going to equalize the advantage?

Now I am just going by what Bill said, I have not really tested the effect
of the draft myself so whether it is realistic or not I don't know. I am
just trying to clarify what "I think" he is saying.

Kerry
RACERX88



Bill Bollinge

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 03 May 2002 02:22:09


EVERY track right now has a draft, it is just how MUCH.  I am not disputing
the SS (Tona, Dega), just the 1- 1 1/2 mile tracks.  Heck we are even
significantly faster at Loudon in a draft.  You can LOSE a draft at Loudon
and be SOL.

It messes up everything.  Example:  You can run .6'.7's at Cali and a guy
who can only pull .9-1.0's can stick right with you.  Now... in this draft
the lead car will be running low to mid .5's and the car behind him has
picked up a half second on their time.  Now, this "effect" isn't for only a
few laps, it will last an entire fuel run.

What I am saying is that right now, once you get to a certain level (High
end races) they are acting just like fixed setup racing.  With the N1 thru
N3 series, that time span was several YEARS, however even at the end of its
life, the Highest end racers were not as equal.  The draft right now
(Specifically at NON-Plated tracks) is working just like at Dega/Tona does
in real life.  You can have a mediocre car, but still run in the lead draft.
Totally un-realistic and makes the game NOT a sim.  Totally ARCADE, because
it is ARTIFICALLY keeping people packed together in packs to make it more
exciting.

Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
www.iracingfx.com

Bill Bollinge

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 03 May 2002 02:23:34

You are just happy because it can artificially keep you in the lead draft
now <G>.

Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
www.iracingfx.com





Lanny Sledg

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Lanny Sledg » Fri, 03 May 2002 07:03:23

I agree totally Bill,  I think it sucks and wish it would go back to the way
it was in N4 regarding the draft.  I do like the way the draft is now in the
SS racing but that is it.  Nothing else to say.
Lanny Sledge



> > If you're talking about SS racing, I think you are wrong about it
> > being unrealistic.  I'll assume you mean at tracks where you have to
> > lift every lap.

> EVERY track right now has a draft, it is just how MUCH.  I am not
disputing
> the SS (Tona, Dega), just the 1- 1 1/2 mile tracks.  Heck we are even
> significantly faster at Loudon in a draft.  You can LOSE a draft at Loudon
> and be SOL.

> > What exactly do you think is messed up about the drafting model?  Too
> > hard to draft, draft effect too pronounced?  Not enough
> > aero-push/aero-loose?

> It messes up everything.  Example:  You can run .6'.7's at Cali and a guy
> who can only pull .9-1.0's can stick right with you.  Now... in this draft
> the lead car will be running low to mid .5's and the car behind him has
> picked up a half second on their time.  Now, this "effect" isn't for only
a
> few laps, it will last an entire fuel run.

> > What are you trying to say?  What does this have to do with the
> > drafting model in NR2002?  If you dont like fixed setup racing, don't
> > do it.

> What I am saying is that right now, once you get to a certain level (High
> end races) they are acting just like fixed setup racing.  With the N1 thru
> N3 series, that time span was several YEARS, however even at the end of
its
> life, the Highest end racers were not as equal.  The draft right now
> (Specifically at NON-Plated tracks) is working just like at Dega/Tona does
> in real life.  You can have a mediocre car, but still run in the lead
draft.
> Totally un-realistic and makes the game NOT a sim.  Totally ARCADE,
because
> it is ARTIFICALLY keeping people packed together in packs to make it more
> exciting.

> Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
> www.iracingfx.com

Blak

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Blak » Fri, 03 May 2002 08:13:24

LOL, No it gives me competition now LMAO!
BTW, I am not at all arguing any point you are trying to make and except for one post in the other group I havent really even
addressed it :) Im just bagging on you cause you have a *** for it <G>

| You are just happy because it can artificially keep you in the lead draft
| now <G>.
|
| Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
| www.iracingfx.com
|
|
|

| >


| > | Hmmm, did I see in the race this weekend that a racer could pull away at
| > | California.  Based upon N2002, I would have thought it impossible in a
| > | draft.
| > |
| > | The draft model in N2002 is majorily messed up.  Open ONLINE setup race
| now,
| > | you can go an entire tire run and see 15+ people within 2-3 seconds of
| each
| > | other.  Not very realistic.
| > |
| > | Tip to Papyrus:  Yah... Fixed setup racing is fun and all, however,
| there
| > | are still people who do enjoy making setups.  LOL - I can still remember
| a
| > | conversation I had in Daytona where an employee to remain nameless said,
| "We
| > | want to make it more like FIXED SETUP racing, because it is more
| exciting".
| > | Well, they got their wish because what is the point anymore with open
| setups
| > | at these large tracks?!?!?!?!?
| > |
| > | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
| > | www.iracingfx.com
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
| >
|
|
|

Bill Bollinge

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 03 May 2002 09:39:07

Heheheh, just for me to get a *** should be exciting enough these days
LOL.  You should be wishing me luck :)

Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
www.iracingfx.com


for one post in the other group I havent really even

> addressed it :) Im just bagging on you cause you have a *** for it <G>




> | You are just happy because it can artificially keep you in the lead
draft
> | now <G>.
> |
> | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
> | www.iracingfx.com
> |
> |
> |


> | >


> | > | Hmmm, did I see in the race this weekend that a racer could pull
away at
> | > | California.  Based upon N2002, I would have thought it impossible in
a
> | > | draft.
> | > |
> | > | The draft model in N2002 is majorily messed up.  Open ONLINE setup
race
> | now,
> | > | you can go an entire tire run and see 15+ people within 2-3 seconds
of
> | each
> | > | other.  Not very realistic.
> | > |
> | > | Tip to Papyrus:  Yah... Fixed setup racing is fun and all, however,
> | there
> | > | are still people who do enjoy making setups.  LOL - I can still
remember
> | a
> | > | conversation I had in Daytona where an employee to remain nameless
said,
> | "We
> | > | want to make it more like FIXED SETUP racing, because it is more
> | exciting".
> | > | Well, they got their wish because what is the point anymore with
open
> | setups
> | > | at these large tracks?!?!?!?!?
> | > |
> | > | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
> | > | www.iracingfx.com
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | >
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> |

Blak

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Blak » Fri, 03 May 2002 11:19:44

I would NEVER admit that in public LMAO!!

| Heheheh, just for me to get a *** should be exciting enough these days
| LOL.  You should be wishing me luck :)
|
| Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
| www.iracingfx.com
|
|
|

| > LOL, No it gives me competition now LMAO!
| > BTW, I am not at all arguing any point you are trying to make and except
| for one post in the other group I havent really even
| > addressed it :) Im just bagging on you cause you have a *** for it <G>
| >
| >


| > | You are just happy because it can artificially keep you in the lead
| draft
| > | now <G>.
| > |
| > | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
| > | www.iracingfx.com
| > |
| > |
| > |


| > | >


| > | > | Hmmm, did I see in the race this weekend that a racer could pull
| away at
| > | > | California.  Based upon N2002, I would have thought it impossible in
| a
| > | > | draft.
| > | > |
| > | > | The draft model in N2002 is majorily messed up.  Open ONLINE setup
| race
| > | now,
| > | > | you can go an entire tire run and see 15+ people within 2-3 seconds
| of
| > | each
| > | > | other.  Not very realistic.
| > | > |
| > | > | Tip to Papyrus:  Yah... Fixed setup racing is fun and all, however,
| > | there
| > | > | are still people who do enjoy making setups.  LOL - I can still
| remember
| > | a
| > | > | conversation I had in Daytona where an employee to remain nameless
| said,
| > | "We
| > | > | want to make it more like FIXED SETUP racing, because it is more
| > | exciting".
| > | > | Well, they got their wish because what is the point anymore with
| open
| > | setups
| > | > | at these large tracks?!?!?!?!?
| > | > |
| > | > | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
| > | > | www.iracingfx.com
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | > |
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > |
| > |
| >
| >
|
|
|

Bill Bollinge

Gotta love that DRAFT model...

by Bill Bollinge » Fri, 03 May 2002 11:40:47

Heheheheh...


> I would NEVER admit that in public LMAO!!




> | Heheheh, just for me to get a *** should be exciting enough these
days
> | LOL.  You should be wishing me luck :)
> |
> | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
> | www.iracingfx.com
> |
> |
> |


> | > LOL, No it gives me competition now LMAO!
> | > BTW, I am not at all arguing any point you are trying to make and
except
> | for one post in the other group I havent really even
> | > addressed it :) Im just bagging on you cause you have a *** for it
<G>
> | >
> | >


> | > | You are just happy because it can artificially keep you in the lead
> | draft
> | > | now <G>.
> | > |
> | > | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
> | > | www.iracingfx.com
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |


> | > | >


> | > | > | Hmmm, did I see in the race this weekend that a racer could pull
> | away at
> | > | > | California.  Based upon N2002, I would have thought it
impossible in
> | a
> | > | > | draft.
> | > | > |
> | > | > | The draft model in N2002 is majorily messed up.  Open ONLINE
setup
> | race
> | > | now,
> | > | > | you can go an entire tire run and see 15+ people within 2-3
seconds
> | of
> | > | each
> | > | > | other.  Not very realistic.
> | > | > |
> | > | > | Tip to Papyrus:  Yah... Fixed setup racing is fun and all,
however,
> | > | there
> | > | > | are still people who do enjoy making setups.  LOL - I can still
> | remember
> | > | a
> | > | > | conversation I had in Daytona where an employee to remain
nameless
> | said,
> | > | "We
> | > | > | want to make it more like FIXED SETUP racing, because it is more
> | > | exciting".
> | > | > | Well, they got their wish because what is the point anymore with
> | open
> | > | setups
> | > | > | at these large tracks?!?!?!?!?
> | > | > |
> | > | > | Bill / Amish on Team Brickyard
> | > | > | www.iracingfx.com
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | > |
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > |
> | > |
> | > |
> | >
> | >
> |
> |
> |


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