rec.autos.simulators

by **nathant** » Sun, 02 May 2004 07:03:58

I was wondering (always a dangerous thing for me to do), do all real NASCAR,
F1, GTR, INDY, and other race car drivers take their real race cars into
their home garage and tinker on their cars themselves until the car is as
fast as possible? It was always my understanding that they normally have a
team of experts to tweak their cars in high tech garages and that they have
computers that analyze everything from suspension to how hot the engine
gets.

Well my question then is why are we required to modify the cars ourselves in
all these sims just so we can be competitive? Why isn't there a button
labeled "let our team engineers make it faster?" When I buy these programs I
just want to drive as fast as possible on "real" tracks, but I seem to need
a degree in auto mechanics just be competitive. I don't want an arcade game
like those on the PS2 or XBox, I want to drive a car that's realistic.
However, I don't think having to tweak a high performance race car all by
myself and with no direction is realistic. The driver doesn't need to tweak
the car in real life by himself, so why should I? He gives his input on what
he feels in the car and the engineers take care of the rest. I think the
computer program that we use should have a team of virtual "engineers" to
make my car faster based on the car and the way I drive. Of course there
could also be a button to let the drivers modify their own cars just like
today for those of you that are truly proficient at fixing up cars (I KNOW
there are a lot of you out there too. I'm sure I've been lapped by you
numerous times.).

I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea what a camber change of one
degree is going to do to my car on a certain track or if the front wing is
moved a few degrees what effect it might have on right stability. I want to
leave that to the mechanics. But what mechanic? Me? Hahahaha. I know that I
can download some fantastic setups by people nice enough to make them
available on the net, but those are usually really effective for those folks
that actually upload them. We still need to tweak it for our tastes, but
tweak what? Where do I begin?

I'm hoping that the next generation of race sims allow us to have a "virtual
engineer" to tweak our cars for us. I'm not saying that the car should be
perfect after pressing the "make it fast" button, but we can have the
"driver" make a "recommendation" on what should be done to make it better.
What do you think? Am I just being a wuss for not spending hours learning
how to tweak a car or do you think this is a worthwhile thing to have?

by **Mitch_** » Sun, 02 May 2004 07:13:20

Bob Stanley is OUR engineer ;) We use his fixed setups to race with. Like
reality the engineer doesnt always make a setup that suits the driver
exactly.

Mitch

by **John DiFoo** » Sun, 02 May 2004 08:07:25

>Bob Stanley is OUR engineer ;) We use his fixed setups to race with. Like
>reality the engineer doesnt always make a setup that suits the driver
>exactly.

>Mitch

Yeah, mine is a certain "Achim", on TA tracks...

I know what a few things do, but am willfully ignorant on
exactly what tweaking X, Y, and Z parameters does. I
just want to race without spending half my time farting
around on the garage screen-life's too short...

John DiFool

by **j_nospam_ca..** » Sun, 02 May 2004 09:10:34

yeah,

no kidding. I don't get the parent post at all. There are amazing
setups available on the internet to cater to just about every driver's
style. There is no reason to be a setup monkey if you don't want to
be a setup monkey.

It takes less than 10 minutes to find tons of setups on the internet.
Just download em, drop em into your setups folders, and figure out
which ones suit your personal driving style. Once you find some sets
you like, then just play around with tweaking them to your liking.

jeff

>Bob Stanley is OUR engineer ;) We use his fixed setups to race with. Like
>reality the engineer doesnt always make a setup that suits the driver
>exactly.

>Mitch

>> Well my question then is why are we required to modify the cars ourselves
>in
>> all these sims just so we can be competitive? Why isn't there a button
>> labeled "let our team engineers make it faster?" When I buy these programs
>I
>> just want to drive as fast as possible on "real" tracks, but I seem to
>need
>> a degree in auto mechanics just be competitive. I don't want an arcade
>game
>> like those on the PS2 or XBox, I want to drive a car that's realistic.
>> However, I don't think having to tweak a high performance race car all by
>> myself and with no direction is realistic. The driver doesn't need to
>tweak
>> the car in real life by himself, so why should I? He gives his input on
>what
>> he feels in the car and the engineers take care of the rest. I think the
>> computer program that we use should have a team of virtual "engineers" to
>> make my car faster based on the car and the way I drive. Of course there
>> could also be a button to let the drivers modify their own cars just like
>> today for those of you that are truly proficient at fixing up cars (I KNOW
>> there are a lot of you out there too. I'm sure I've been lapped by you
>> numerous times.).

>> I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea what a camber change of one
>> degree is going to do to my car on a certain track or if the front wing is
>> moved a few degrees what effect it might have on right stability. I want
>to
>> leave that to the mechanics. But what mechanic? Me? Hahahaha. I know that
>I
>> can download some fantastic setups by people nice enough to make them
>> available on the net, but those are usually really effective for those
>folks
>> that actually upload them. We still need to tweak it for our tastes, but
>> tweak what? Where do I begin?

>> I'm hoping that the next generation of race sims allow us to have a
>"virtual
>> engineer" to tweak our cars for us. I'm not saying that the car should be
>> perfect after pressing the "make it fast" button, but we can have the
>> "driver" make a "recommendation" on what should be done to make it better.
>> What do you think? Am I just being a wuss for not spending hours learning
>> how to tweak a car or do you think this is a worthwhile thing to have?

by **Eldre** » Sun, 02 May 2004 10:09:40

And if you don't find anything you like, then what? The non setup-literate
person is still stuck without a good setup. Whereas the setup-literate person
can grab any old setup, and modify it to suit his style. I agree with the OP -
it would be nice to have *something* in the game take your feedback on the
setup and change it for the better.

Even if you find 100 setups for a track, you still have to do a comparison
between them. Setup A is too loose, setup B is too tight. Repeat for the next
98 setups. How many different variables in the setup can produce such a
difference? In most games, too many for some of us to understand..

Eldred
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by **Cliff Roma** » Sun, 02 May 2004 10:13:43

Do you really know what you are asking?

They have a hard enough time getting the AI to act like real drivers..

Now imagine them having to code the game where the car takes a simulated
trip around the track testing every possible change and how it effects the
car.

This does not even take into effect that people have different driving
styles and what may be faster for one person will not be faster for another.

Not something I see within the next 5-6 years. At least not something that
works correctly and is reliable.

by **bhoeni** » Sun, 02 May 2004 11:03:19

Don't they already have something along these lines in Total Immersion Racing?
I seem to recall the "Engineer" asking you questions after each hot lap whether
to make an adjustment. Then you try it out. It seems to me that this would be
a nice feature in other sims.

> I was wondering (always a dangerous thing for me to do), do all real NASCAR,
> F1, GTR, INDY, and other race car drivers take their real race cars into
> their home garage and tinker on their cars themselves until the car is as
> fast as possible? It was always my understanding that they normally have a
> team of experts to tweak their cars in high tech garages and that they have
> computers that analyze everything from suspension to how hot the engine
> gets.

> Well my question then is why are we required to modify the cars ourselves in
> all these sims just so we can be competitive? Why isn't there a button
> labeled "let our team engineers make it faster?" When I buy these programs I
> just want to drive as fast as possible on "real" tracks, but I seem to need
> a degree in auto mechanics just be competitive. I don't want an arcade game
> like those on the PS2 or XBox, I want to drive a car that's realistic.
> However, I don't think having to tweak a high performance race car all by
> myself and with no direction is realistic. The driver doesn't need to tweak
> the car in real life by himself, so why should I? He gives his input on what
> he feels in the car and the engineers take care of the rest. I think the
> computer program that we use should have a team of virtual "engineers" to
> make my car faster based on the car and the way I drive. Of course there
> could also be a button to let the drivers modify their own cars just like
> today for those of you that are truly proficient at fixing up cars (I KNOW
> there are a lot of you out there too. I'm sure I've been lapped by you
> numerous times.).

> I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea what a camber change of one
> degree is going to do to my car on a certain track or if the front wing is
> moved a few degrees what effect it might have on right stability. I want to
> leave that to the mechanics. But what mechanic? Me? Hahahaha. I know that I
> can download some fantastic setups by people nice enough to make them
> available on the net, but those are usually really effective for those folks
> that actually upload them. We still need to tweak it for our tastes, but
> tweak what? Where do I begin?

> I'm hoping that the next generation of race sims allow us to have a "virtual
> engineer" to tweak our cars for us. I'm not saying that the car should be
> perfect after pressing the "make it fast" button, but we can have the
> "driver" make a "recommendation" on what should be done to make it better.
> What do you think? Am I just being a wuss for not spending hours learning
> how to tweak a car or do you think this is a worthwhile thing to have?

by **mkdykstr** » Sun, 02 May 2004 13:10:50

didn't microsoft's "cart precision racing" have somthing like this? it's
been along time since i've played it, don't remember for sure.

> Don't they already have something along these lines in Total Immersion Racing?
> I seem to recall the "Engineer" asking you questions after each hot lap whether
> to make an adjustment. Then you try it out. It seems to me that this would be
> a nice feature in other sims.

>>I was wondering (always a dangerous thing for me to do), do all real NASCAR,
>>F1, GTR, INDY, and other race car drivers take their real race cars into
>>their home garage and tinker on their cars themselves until the car is as
>>fast as possible? It was always my understanding that they normally have a
>>team of experts to tweak their cars in high tech garages and that they have
>>computers that analyze everything from suspension to how hot the engine
>>gets.

>>Well my question then is why are we required to modify the cars ourselves in
>>all these sims just so we can be competitive? Why isn't there a button
>>labeled "let our team engineers make it faster?" When I buy these programs I
>>just want to drive as fast as possible on "real" tracks, but I seem to need
>>a degree in auto mechanics just be competitive. I don't want an arcade game
>>like those on the PS2 or XBox, I want to drive a car that's realistic.
>>However, I don't think having to tweak a high performance race car all by
>>myself and with no direction is realistic. The driver doesn't need to tweak
>>the car in real life by himself, so why should I? He gives his input on what
>>he feels in the car and the engineers take care of the rest. I think the
>>computer program that we use should have a team of virtual "engineers" to
>>make my car faster based on the car and the way I drive. Of course there
>>could also be a button to let the drivers modify their own cars just like
>>today for those of you that are truly proficient at fixing up cars (I KNOW
>>there are a lot of you out there too. I'm sure I've been lapped by you
>>numerous times.).

>>I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea what a camber change of one
>>degree is going to do to my car on a certain track or if the front wing is
>>moved a few degrees what effect it might have on right stability. I want to
>>leave that to the mechanics. But what mechanic? Me? Hahahaha. I know that I
>>can download some fantastic setups by people nice enough to make them
>>available on the net, but those are usually really effective for those folks
>>that actually upload them. We still need to tweak it for our tastes, but
>>tweak what? Where do I begin?

>>I'm hoping that the next generation of race sims allow us to have a "virtual
>>engineer" to tweak our cars for us. I'm not saying that the car should be
>>perfect after pressing the "make it fast" button, but we can have the
>>"driver" make a "recommendation" on what should be done to make it better.
>>What do you think? Am I just being a wuss for not spending hours learning
>>how to tweak a car or do you think this is a worthwhile thing to have?

by **Damien Evan** » Sun, 02 May 2004 13:11:41

I just use this table........

+ indicates stiffer damping
- indicates softer damping.
IF is inside front
OF is outside front

PHASE, MORE MORE
DIRECTIONS UNDERSTEER OVERSTEER

Phase 1 entry
OF bump F bump + F bump -
OR rebound R rebound - R rebound +

Phase 2 entry
IF rebound F rebound + F rebound -
OR bump R bump - R bump +

Phase 3A entry
OF&OR bump F bump + F bump -
IF&IR rebound F rebound + F rebound -
R bump - R bump +
R rebound - R rebound +

Phase 3B exit
OF&OR rebound F bump - F bump +
IF&IR bump F rebound - F rebound +
R bump + R bump -
R rebound + R rebound -

Phase 4 exit
OF rebound F rebound - F rebound +
IR bump R bump + R bump -

by **jwilson5** » Sun, 02 May 2004 22:46:07

> didn't microsoft's "cart precision racing" have somthing like this? it's
> been along time since i've played it, don't remember for sure.

>> Don't they already have something along these lines in Total Immersion
>> Racing?
>> I seem to recall the "Engineer" asking you questions after each hot
>> lap whether
>> to make an adjustment. Then you try it out. It seems to me that this
>> would be
>> a nice feature in other sims.

>>> I was wondering (always a dangerous thing for me to do), do all real
>>> NASCAR,
>>> F1, GTR, INDY, and other race car drivers take their real race cars into
>>> their home garage and tinker on their cars themselves until the car
>>> is as
>>> fast as possible? It was always my understanding that they normally
>>> have a
>>> team of experts to tweak their cars in high tech garages and that
>>> they have
>>> computers that analyze everything from suspension to how hot the engine
>>> gets.

>>> Well my question then is why are we required to modify the cars
>>> ourselves in
>>> all these sims just so we can be competitive? Why isn't there a button
>>> labeled "let our team engineers make it faster?" When I buy these
>>> programs I
>>> just want to drive as fast as possible on "real" tracks, but I seem
>>> to need
>>> a degree in auto mechanics just be competitive. I don't want an
>>> arcade game
>>> like those on the PS2 or XBox, I want to drive a car that's realistic.
>>> However, I don't think having to tweak a high performance race car
>>> all by
>>> myself and with no direction is realistic. The driver doesn't need to
>>> tweak
>>> the car in real life by himself, so why should I? He gives his input
>>> on what
>>> he feels in the car and the engineers take care of the rest. I think the
>>> computer program that we use should have a team of virtual
>>> "engineers" to
>>> make my car faster based on the car and the way I drive. Of course there
>>> could also be a button to let the drivers modify their own cars just
>>> like
>>> today for those of you that are truly proficient at fixing up cars (I
>>> KNOW
>>> there are a lot of you out there too. I'm sure I've been lapped by you
>>> numerous times.).

>>> I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea what a camber change
>>> of one
>>> degree is going to do to my car on a certain track or if the front
>>> wing is
>>> moved a few degrees what effect it might have on right stability. I
>>> want to
>>> leave that to the mechanics. But what mechanic? Me? Hahahaha. I know
>>> that I
>>> can download some fantastic setups by people nice enough to make them
>>> available on the net, but those are usually really effective for
>>> those folks
>>> that actually upload them. We still need to tweak it for our tastes, but
>>> tweak what? Where do I begin?

>>> I'm hoping that the next generation of race sims allow us to have a
>>> "virtual
>>> engineer" to tweak our cars for us. I'm not saying that the car
>>> should be
>>> perfect after pressing the "make it fast" button, but we can have the
>>> "driver" make a "recommendation" on what should be done to make it
>>> better.
>>> What do you think? Am I just being a wuss for not spending hours
>>> learning
>>> how to tweak a car or do you think this is a worthwhile thing to have?

I rember something from nascar4 I think called virtual crew chief,you
would input what car was doing and it would make changes.

by **j_nospam_ca..** » Mon, 03 May 2004 00:01:01

Then i check things out like:

http://www.torn8oalley.com/setupguide.html

-or-

http://www.sportplanet.com/team-lightspeed/downloads.html

for their setup guides and try to have some understanding of what is
going on. It is a simulation racing game after all and so a person is
expected to do some work if they want to be competitive.

You do have to try different setups, and if you can't find something
you like, then you have to find something that closely approximates
what you can drive. You turn tons of laps, like everyone else does,
and figure out what you don't like. Then you read up on the stuff
mentioned above. Begin making changes one at time, turn more laps,
rinse and repeat.

The sim racing crowd is hard core, but that seems to be the appeal of
the genre. I love GPL, but I can't turn the 100's of solo practice
laps it seems to take to really get that rank down. It's why I never
win a race in the game ;-). But for N2003, i do enjoy turning lap
after lap, trying to shave the tiniest bit of time off my laps. Once
I find a setup that I like, then i just tweak it ever so slightly to
get the car on the line i feel most comfortable with around the track
and awat I go.

just my .02
jeff

by **Eldre** » Mon, 03 May 2004 03:48:11

I'll assume the reason I can't make any sense out of that yet is that the
formatting is off. I'll study it some more, thanks.

Eldred
--
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by **Roelevel** » Mon, 03 May 2004 11:36:58

I remember microsoft precision racing having that feature, but then again I
kinda remember the changes never helped my car. In general I find that
setups don't mean as much to me as the amount of practice i get on a track.

Derek

> didn't microsoft's "cart precision racing" have somthing like this? it's
> been along time since i've played it, don't remember for sure.

> > Don't they already have something along these lines in Total Immersion
Racing?
> > I seem to recall the "Engineer" asking you questions after each hot lap
whether
> > to make an adjustment. Then you try it out. It seems to me that this
would be
> > a nice feature in other sims.

> >>I was wondering (always a dangerous thing for me to do), do all real
NASCAR,
> >>F1, GTR, INDY, and other race car drivers take their real race cars into
> >>their home garage and tinker on their cars themselves until the car is
as
> >>fast as possible? It was always my understanding that they normally have
a
> >>team of experts to tweak their cars in high tech garages and that they
have
> >>computers that analyze everything from suspension to how hot the engine
> >>gets.

> >>Well my question then is why are we required to modify the cars
ourselves in
> >>all these sims just so we can be competitive? Why isn't there a button
> >>labeled "let our team engineers make it faster?" When I buy these
programs I
> >>just want to drive as fast as possible on "real" tracks, but I seem to
need
> >>a degree in auto mechanics just be competitive. I don't want an arcade
game
> >>like those on the PS2 or XBox, I want to drive a car that's realistic.
> >>However, I don't think having to tweak a high performance race car all
by
> >>myself and with no direction is realistic. The driver doesn't need to
tweak
> >>the car in real life by himself, so why should I? He gives his input on
what
> >>he feels in the car and the engineers take care of the rest. I think the
> >>computer program that we use should have a team of virtual "engineers"
to
> >>make my car faster based on the car and the way I drive. Of course there
> >>could also be a button to let the drivers modify their own cars just
like
> >>today for those of you that are truly proficient at fixing up cars (I
KNOW
> >>there are a lot of you out there too. I'm sure I've been lapped by you
> >>numerous times.).

> >>I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea what a camber change of
one
> >>degree is going to do to my car on a certain track or if the front wing
is
> >>moved a few degrees what effect it might have on right stability. I want
to
> >>leave that to the mechanics. But what mechanic? Me? Hahahaha. I know
that I
> >>can download some fantastic setups by people nice enough to make them
> >>available on the net, but those are usually really effective for those
folks
> >>that actually upload them. We still need to tweak it for our tastes, but
> >>tweak what? Where do I begin?

> >>I'm hoping that the next generation of race sims allow us to have a
"virtual
> >>engineer" to tweak our cars for us. I'm not saying that the car should
be
> >>perfect after pressing the "make it fast" button, but we can have the
> >>"driver" make a "recommendation" on what should be done to make it
better.
> >>What do you think? Am I just being a wuss for not spending hours
learning
> >>how to tweak a car or do you think this is a worthwhile thing to have?

by **Eric Leblan** » Mon, 03 May 2004 12:18:51

That is a good point,

They could create a interface where you have multiple selectable option of
car behavior, once you have selected what you feel about the car you hit
process and it recommend changes to your setup. That would be cool, but how
long would it take to have that process accurate? ouf..

EL

by **Peter Ive** » Mon, 03 May 2004 20:15:02

Well I'd be more than happy if some of these setup experts out there
could come up with a 'stand-alone' program for the sims that I play that
could ask me a series of multiple-choice questions and then come up with
some suggestions for me to take back into the game. Hey, even that
would give quicker results than my random click here, click there
attempts.

And I have read up on some of this stuff, but unless you're tweaking all
the time and have time for doing so, then any small knowledge that
you've gained soon gets lost over the following weeks/months. I just
haven't got enough hours in the day to be able to practice racing and
learning about car setup.
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -25.01

rec.autos.simulators

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?

Race sims - where's the virtual mechanics?