rec.autos.simulators

Watching some of the Michigan race I don't see how that could ever be
recreated in N2002. The real cars go into the turns nice and tight, right
next to each other (one or two feet apart and mirror each other around the
entire turn), don't wash out, don't scrub speed much (if any) when they take
a higher line, and even go three and four wide and seem nice and tight and
under control.

The cars weren't all on the third lap of new tires either.

Is it the physics, tire model, or aero modelling in N2002 which makes what I
saw today seem impossible in the sim.

Before anyone says, "it can be done, my league does it at Michigan all the
time", point me to a replay.

Surprised this isn't talked about all the time by NASCAR regulars. Took me
about 15 seconds to see the obvious.

David G Fisher

Although I love the Sim, that has been my largest complaint about it, you cannot run multiple grooves, the inside lane is always the
faster groove.. yes the running the outside lane is racable now when it was not before the inside 99% is still the preferred line at
any track when we know several tracks the middle or up groove can been the faster line..

: Watching some of the Michigan race I don't see how that could ever be
: recreated in N2002. The real cars go into the turns nice and tight, right
: next to each other (one or two feet apart and mirror each other around the
: entire turn), don't wash out, don't scrub speed much (if any) when they take
: a higher line, and even go three and four wide and seem nice and tight and
: under control.
:
: The cars weren't all on the third lap of new tires either.
:
: Is it the physics, tire model, or aero modelling in N2002 which makes what I
: saw today seem impossible in the sim.
:
: Before anyone says, "it can be done, my league does it at Michigan all the
: time", point me to a replay.
:
: Surprised this isn't talked about all the time by NASCAR regulars. Took me
: about 15 seconds to see the obvious.
:
: David G Fisher
:
:

It's a tiny little bit of all, plus the fact that they use much different
setups then ours (considering they want their cars to last equally for a
100% lenght race).

That's why I was saying to you that in 4 years even the tyre model in
F1-2002 will seem crude.  Same thing applies for the current Papy sims.
It's 95% like reality, but that last 5% will take even more time then all of
the rest combined.

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As you can imagine based on my similar note in another thread I agree
that something is wrong.  The high line seems to be the ultimate
defensive position at the longer tracks in real life, at least once the
marbles are cleared off.  As soon as one driver gets it to work, you
will see several more trying it.  That's the exact opposite of NR 2002,
where people use the low line to defend their position.  I wonder
though - how many sim racers have even given the high line a serious
try?  Not just try it in the middle of the race to see if it works, but
practice it and develop a setup for it.  And how about running a middle
line?  I brought this up after the Michigan race last year and it didn't
seem that many people had given it a serious try.  Personally, my times
are no worse on the high line than they are on the preferred line, but
since my times suck either way, that really doesn't prove anything.
OTOH if you watched the lap times in today's race it still seemed to be
true with the real drivers - the high line does not cost you laptime
IRL.  I would like to see what would happen if some sim racer with some
knowledge of what s/he is doing gave it a serious try in NR 2002.

I think the primary reason is that we can't feel the cars and have no
peripheral vision.  Without those two things, you can't hope to re-
create the real deal.

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You can run multiple grooves if you have good car control.  It is very
possible to run within a few tenths at almost every track while
staying exactly a car width above the apron.

That said, I wouldn't dare try to do that online against most people.
You can get away with it sometimes at the plate tracks when everyone
has new tires, but most people have a hard enough time keeping their
left tires on the white line even there that the risk of being hit is
way too high.  Throw in the warp factor and it's really not advisable
to run a high line against other humans.

In league races at places like Michigan and Atlanta I find it really
difficult to make low passes against skilled drivers.  Why?  If the
car above runs in the high part of the groove, I'm talking the upper
half of the darkened pavement - not up in the marbles, they can stay
just along side of you to the apex and they'll inevitably get a much
better exit since you can't drift out without taking a chance of a
collision.  I've actually let people pass me on the outside while
slowing for a corner, like turn 1 at Cali or Michigan, so that I had
more room to accelerate out of the turn and get them on the
backstretch.

Jason

-----
GPLRank 24.50
N2002Rank -12.995

  Multiple lines have never been a strong suit of the Papy sims, so it's
kind of accepted.  That's probably why no one's mentioned it; it's old news
:)

  You can run any line well, with experience in the sims, but it's not as
easy as it should be.

  But then, since there's porked damage physics, collision physics, and
drafting physics, shouldn't be surprising that other parts of the sim make
one go, "Huh ?"  <g>

John

Hi David,

clearly the human factor I'd say ;-) we're just not as good as the real
drivers. There may be issues with the sim itself, but the biggest factor is
us :-)

Achim

  I'd have to say it's the sim more than anything myself.
  While flawed in other ways, Nascar Revolution and Heat both handled
running a high line *much* better.

John

Wrong...

Good post...

On Mon, 19 Aug 2002 10:50:08 -0000, "Joachim Trensz"

I agree 100%.

The other posts in this thread make we want to reinstall the damn game
just so I can record replays of it being done.

Jason

-----
GPLRank 24.50
N2002Rank -12.995

David....

You raise some good points about "racing simulations" and their comparative
quality of racing to real-world racing.

I don't think anyone believes that today's good racing sims (Papy's N2K2 for
example) is 100% equivalent to real-world racing.  But, its close enough
(maybe 90-95% - IMHO) for many "training" purposes and to provide some
entertaining racing to the participants.  N2K2 is certainly light-years
ahead of the N2 or even N3 days (which were maybe 80% equivalent to
real-world racing).  Additionally, you must take into account that in a
Winston Cup race, those are the best drivers in the world, at that type of
racing (stockcars on ovals).  Even if you were to take 43 of the best N2K2
sim drivers in the world, it wouldn't be equivalent racing to what you see
on TV each Sunday.  But it would be a far cry closer than a Sierra.com
pickup race, don't you agree?  In general....with some exceptions on a race
by race basis, as you move down the "scale" from Winston Cup racing, you see
a quality of the on-track racing that begins to approach something more like
the "best of the best" of sim (drivers) racing.  And, I think we've all seen
some things happen on TV on Sunday during a WC or Busch race........that
make us laugh at how much it resembled a sim race we'd just participated in!
You know? ....lol....  The "top dogs" can do some pretty stupid things
sometimes, too!

Speaking directly to the car physics issue in N2K2, I believe it is very
good.....but not perfect and not 100% equivalent to real-world racing, of
course.  As you move the track temps up and down the scale, the car physics
"quality" drifts towards, and away from - the ideal 100% equivalent.  In
addition, the tire-modeling component of the physics engine is probably the
last remaining area of improvement that Papy can make in their physics
engine model.  Right now, it isn't scaleable by the "game."  Real-world WC
races have different tire characteristics manufactured into their tires by
Goodyear....for each unique WC track (and take into account the current WC
"aero package/formula").  Even if Papy could give us a "tire selection"
option for each track (Hard, Soft, Medium - for example) that would be a
huge improvement for N2K2....but still not 100% real-world equivalent.  But,
it sure would be a step in the right direction, IMHO.

I think this issue isn't discussed as much as you might think, because its
kind of a "given" - that sim racing isn't equivalent 100% to real-world
racing....probably never will be!  So, the discussions generally center
around "what can be done to make what we have - closer to real-world racing
than it currently is."  Ultimately, those things are up to the sim
developers - balanced with their capabilities vs. financial return on their
products.  Just because some "element of the physics modeling" is possible,
doesn't make it financially feasible to include in a retail racing
simulation/game.  I think we sometimes forget that, you know?

Anyway, thanks for raising some good points in your post......

Regards,

Tom

What a bummer, dave, N2k2 isn't 100% realistic! High time you pissed off
back to Pod Racer then?

Gerry

"NASCAR sims are easy and very boring. Turning left is hardly a great
skill." -- David G Fisher

Dave,

We're running the fixed setup, which is far from optimized.

I can make one astonishingly fast Michigan setup when I want too :)

-Larry