rec.autos.simulators

by **Mark Seer** » Thu, 25 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Thanks for all your efforts Jack. Your skills in organising these series on
a world wide basis are second to none.
I have to do some venting however. I joined this series as a result of
thinking it would be a pleasant change from trying to 'race' with all those
suicide jockeys we come across on VROC. I have to say that I was pretty
pissed off with some of the driving tonight. Admittedly I only qualified
last but one on the grid in my Cooper with a time of 1:22.11, but I do not
see this as an excuse for the faster Lotus drivers to think that they can
act as bullies to get by, as if they have a god given right to be in front
of a cooper.I was taken out of this race three times.

1. By a Lotus going into turn 2 on lap 1, apparently using me as a brake. He
must have been doing about 20 mph more than I was.
2. I passed a recovering Lotus who had been off the circuit somewhere. after
taking a lap or two to catch me I was simply arse ended off the track as he
hit me at the slow left hander at the back of the circuit. Spin spin for me
and he is off on his merry way into the distance
3. After passing a third Lotus (possibly the same driver) who had been
involved in an altercation with a Ferrari, he caught me after 2-3 laps. Not
content to outbrake me into turn 1 where it would have been easy for him, he
decides to take me out at the start finish line trying to pass on the rough
patch to the left hand side of the track. I was on the usual line on the
black stuff. one second I am wondering where he is then bang....sideswiped.

As I said before Jack, I applaud you on your fine efforts but if this is the
standard of driving here I'll stick with VROC where I know I can at least
win races with people in my speed range/ability.

Regards

Mark

by **Dave Hawn** » Thu, 25 Mar 1999 04:00:00

> Thanks for all your efforts Jack. Your skills in organising these series on
> a world wide basis are second to none.
> I have to do some venting however. I joined this series as a result of
> thinking it would be a pleasant change from trying to 'race' with all those
> suicide jockeys we come across on VROC. I have to say that I was pretty
> pissed off with some of the driving tonight. Admittedly I only qualified
> last but one on the grid in my Cooper with a time of 1:22.11, but I do not
> see this as an excuse for the faster Lotus drivers to think that they can
> act as bullies to get by, as if they have a god given right to be in front
> of a cooper.I was taken out of this race three times.

> 1. By a Lotus going into turn 2 on lap 1, apparently using me as a brake. He
> must have been doing about 20 mph more than I was.
> 2. I passed a recovering Lotus who had been off the circuit somewhere. after
> taking a lap or two to catch me I was simply arse ended off the track as he
> hit me at the slow left hander at the back of the circuit. Spin spin for me
> and he is off on his merry way into the distance
> 3. After passing a third Lotus (possibly the same driver) who had been
> involved in an altercation with a Ferrari, he caught me after 2-3 laps. Not
> content to outbrake me into turn 1 where it would have been easy for him, he
> decides to take me out at the start finish line trying to pass on the rough
> patch to the left hand side of the track. I was on the usual line on the
> black stuff. one second I am wondering where he is then bang....sideswiped.

> As I said before Jack, I applaud you on your fine efforts but if this is the
> standard of driving here I'll stick with VROC where I know I can at least
> win races with people in my speed range/ability.

> Regards

> Mark

H'mmm, I would like to see a replay of that race! Maybe some of these 'Lotus
bullies' would think twice if they knew the replay was going to be available for
one and all to see there 'ruthless' tactics..... (mine are Ferrari 'ruthless'
tactics ;-)
See my previous post (above) re. 'GPL race replays for download'
Just a thought......

Dave Hawnt UK-GPL

by **SteveBla** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

>As I said before Jack, I applaud you on your fine efforts but if this is the
>standard of driving here I'll stick with VROC where I know I can at least
>win races with people in my speed range/ability.

Duck and cover, eh? You just need to emmigate so you can drive with all the
polite, (Nascar-Trained<g>) drivers here in the Americas Div.. :-) Sounds like
a bunch of Schumacher wannabe's over there.

Steve B.

remove "edy" from address for email

by **Mike Buckle** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Hi Mark

I was involved with you in that race last night and I was hoping to have
the opportunity to chat to you regarding the incidents as you'd gone by
the time the race had finished.

I was also taken out on Turn 2 on lap one by a Lotus, I put a wheel on
the grass on the exit and not wanting to spin I didn't put the power
down - the guy behind me ran into me

Not me! although at the same corner I hit someone (Eagle?) after they
spun in front of me - I couldn't get out of the way in time and was
flipped over.

um yes - this was me, I'd like to apologise but at the same time give my
point of view. The altercation with a Ferrari was due to the Ferrari and
another car blocking the track having spun, I couldn't get through the
gap and couldn't stop in time so I had no chance of avoiding the car :(
The start and finish line incident was a bit different. I was catching
you all the way from the start of the straight and had to back off so as
not to hit you going onto the start/finish straight proper, I still had
momentum to carry me past you however, you then moved over towards the
pit lane so I moved to the outside slightly - by this time my front
wheels would be about alongside your back wheels i guess. You then moved
back over onto the black line giving me no choice but to move onto the
concrete, I was well alongside you by this time but as the concrete was
running out i tried to get back onto the track only for us to tangle.
Sorry if you think it's my fault, no malice was intended and with
hindsight I should have waited until turn one but i saw what i thought
was a clear opportunity so i went for it. I'd like to see the replay
before taking 100% of the blame though.
I'm sorry you feel this way, I didn't think last nights racing was
particularly successful either but going by the chat afterwards a few
people were having a bad GPL day, although the battle for the first few
positions seemed to be well enjoyed.

I hope you persevere with NTT its certainly worth it, I've found the
drivers to be very polite and well mannered, if anyone else feels I'm
not a clean driver I'll certainly listen.
--
Mike Buckley
Cotswold Pig Development Co Ltd
Tel: 44 (0)1472 371591 Fax: 44 (0)1472 371208

WWW: www.toastyhamster.freeserve.co.uk

by **Ian Parke** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Hi Mark, firstly an apology, I was driving the Lotus on lap 1, however on
the replay I made no contact with you, but as soon as I went past you went
off, so maybe a warp caused it, still I was behind you and should have taken
this into account :( so again, sorry. I mis-judged how slow the traffic was
into T2 and had to take evasive action, I thought I had passed cleanly but
obviously I hadn't.
I didn't mean to cause any problems for other drivers and in all the mayhem
on the track I hadnt realised you'd gone off or I would have conceded the
position.

--
Ian Parker

ICQ 21772592

>Thanks for all your efforts Jack. Your skills in organising these series on
>a world wide basis are second to none.
>I have to do some venting however. I joined this series as a result of
> thinking it would be a pleasant change from trying to 'race' with all
those
>suicide jockeys we come across on VROC. I have to say that I was pretty
>pissed off with some of the driving tonight. Admittedly I only qualified
>last but one on the grid in my Cooper with a time of 1:22.11, but I do not
>see this as an excuse for the faster Lotus drivers to think that they can
>act as bullies to get by, as if they have a god given right to be in front
>of a cooper.I was taken out of this race three times.

>1. By a Lotus going into turn 2 on lap 1, apparently using me as a brake.
He
>must have been doing about 20 mph more than I was.

by **John** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Sometimes if there is a large gap in speed people can misjudge braking and
get over their heads. You see this a lot in real life racing even in the
Pro's. When coming up on a back marker people have to be careful or brake
off line in case the back marker they are coming up on has a significant
difference in speed or braking points.

John

by **Greger Hut** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

On Wed, 24 Mar 1999 23:07:00 -0000, "Mark Seery"

>Thanks for all your efforts Jack. Your skills in organising these series on
>a world wide basis are second to none.
>I have to do some venting however. I joined this series as a result of
> thinking it would be a pleasant change from trying to 'race' with all those
>suicide jockeys we come across on VROC. I have to say that I was pretty
>pissed off with some of the driving tonight. Admittedly I only qualified
>last but one on the grid in my Cooper with a time of 1:22.11, but I do not
>see this as an excuse for the faster Lotus drivers to think that they can
>act as bullies to get by, as if they have a god given right to be in front
>of a cooper.I was taken out of this race three times.

This is a great series even though you can't sometimes avoid those
crashes. We had a pretty "eventful" race on Tuesday when I was driving
the Honda. Lots of cars spinning around on the track and everytime a
car spinned in front of me it would just hit me. Bad luck I guess.
But Wednesday's race was quite the opposite! I qualified on pole in
the Eagle with a time of 1:19.00. R. Ehnstrom passed me at the start
and soon I was searching a way to get back to 1st pos. There was also
S. Beck in his Lotus right behind me. We were many times side-by-side
on the main straight with Roland but he defended on the inside line to
T1. It was really great!

One time I got a really good exit of the last corner and with the help
of Eagle's power I got a little ahead of Roland's Ferrari when we
arrived at the braking zone. I was on the outside, though and I think
Roland slid a little wide and due to some warp I got punted off the
road. I had no intention to give up, I fought my way from 6th pos (?)
passing cars and finally seeing the familiar Ferrari and Lotus in
front of me. This time Roland got a black flag and I begun to catch S.
Beck's leading Lotus. He made a small mistake at the Clubhouse Bend I
was just able to sneak through. After that I just drove to victory. It
was just unbelievable and surely one of the best online races I've
had.

Thanks Jack!

--
Greger Huttu

by **Mark Seer** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

OK mike,
fair enough. I'll accept what you say altough you was totally out of sight
from me. As I said in my post, I was venting a bit last night.

Mark

no malice was intended

by **Alexander Mar** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

mark,

I was the victim of very similar incidents in the same race, i have to
say that
some of the very fast drivers should calm down a bit when they are
racing.
A lotus went off a few times and then caught up on me (i was 5th).
Then in the esses he just drove slammed into my back. I watched it on
replay
- he never could've nailed the esses at such a high speed, even if i
hadn't been
there. When i recovered i drove through the esses just to find the same
car
facing me. I wanted to drive by, but he pulled over to stop me - bang!
This series of accidents ruined the race for me (and others - see the
other posts)
after a brilliant start.
What i want to say is that the faster drivers have to see they can't
pull a 1.19
every lap they drive in a race. If a slower car is in front of them (not
a backmarker), they have to find a good spot to pass it.
If one of the faster cars is on my side, i'll back off.
I don't consider myself terribly slow with times constantly around 1.22
(qual. 1.21.5),
so if i am in a good position in the race, i want to hold that position.
Not like closing doors on anyone, but i wont pull aside on the straight
and brake just
to let the other driver scream past. If i can see he is making a good
attempt at passing
me, i will let him.

If anyone wants to see how a masterful pass should look like,
i can send him the replay of mike buckley passing me in that race,
that was great stuff.

Alex

by **Mitc** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Guys
I'm by far the slowest at Kyalami in the AM div (blap 124.5). I know this
and as such pull over at the most opportune time. What was happening to me
was people are trying to pass as soon as they came up on me instead of
showing patience and waiting for a safe passing zone (like the front
straight) where I would much rather slow a tad to avoid any possible
warp/touch. I feel it is the passers responsability to make a safe pass,
not the guy holding his line.

IMHO
Mitch Alatorre

by **M Lierman** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

The problem some of these drivers have, besides the ego, is that they have
nothing to lose if they get in an accident. If any of these people had ever
been in a real race with a real car, they would be a more patient, knowing
that the consequences of a poor pass attempt could be fatal. It would make
the whole online race experience that much more enjoyable. IMO

BTW, why do some people think that I can move over for them when going thru
a turn? Relax, if I'm a lap down i'll slide over as soon as I reasonably
can.

>Guys
>I'm by far the slowest at Kyalami in the AM div (blap 124.5). I know this
>and as such pull over at the most opportune time. What was happening to me
>was people are trying to pass as soon as they came up on me instead of
>showing patience and waiting for a safe passing zone (like the front
>straight) where I would much rather slow a tad to avoid any possible
>warp/touch. I feel it is the passers responsability to make a safe pass,
>not the guy holding his line.

>IMHO
>Mitch Alatorre

>> mark,

>> > 1. By a Lotus going into turn 2 on lap 1, apparently using me as a
>brake. He
>> > must have been doing about 20 mph more than I was.
>> > 2. I passed a recovering Lotus who had been off the circuit somewhere.
>after
>> > taking a lap or two to catch me I was simply arse ended off the track
as
>he
>> > hit me at the slow left hander at the back of the circuit. Spin spin
>for me
>> > and he is off on his merry way into the distance
>> > 3. After passing a third Lotus (possibly the same driver) who had been
>> > involved in an altercation with a Ferrari, he caught me after 2-3 laps.
>Not
>> > content to outbrake me into turn 1 where it would have been easy for
>him, he
>> > decides to take me out at the start finish line trying to pass on the
>rough
>> > patch to the left hand side of the track. I was on the usual line on
the
>> > black stuff. one second I am wondering where he is then
>bang....sideswiped.

>> I was the victim of very similar incidents in the same race, i have to
>> say that
>> some of the very fast drivers should calm down a bit when they are
>> racing.
>> A lotus went off a few times and then caught up on me (i was 5th).
>> Then in the esses he just drove slammed into my back. I watched it on
>> replay
>> - he never could've nailed the esses at such a high speed, even if i
>> hadn't been
>> there. When i recovered i drove through the esses just to find the same
>> car
>> facing me. I wanted to drive by, but he pulled over to stop me - bang!
>> This series of accidents ruined the race for me (and others - see the
>> other posts)
>> after a brilliant start.
>> What i want to say is that the faster drivers have to see they can't
>> pull a 1.19
>> every lap they drive in a race. If a slower car is in front of them (not
>> a backmarker), they have to find a good spot to pass it.
>> If one of the faster cars is on my side, i'll back off.
>> I don't consider myself terribly slow with times constantly around 1.22
>> (qual. 1.21.5),
>> so if i am in a good position in the race, i want to hold that position.
>> Not like closing doors on anyone, but i wont pull aside on the straight
>> and brake just
>> to let the other driver scream past. If i can see he is making a good
>> attempt at passing
>> me, i will let him.

>> If anyone wants to see how a masterful pass should look like,
>> i can send him the replay of mike buckley passing me in that race,
>> that was great stuff.

>> Alex

by **muren.nos..** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

I sympathize Mark. In defense of the NTT series and it's drivers I have to say
it is as good as I've seen considering it's longer races create lots of
situations of the leaders lapping other cars.

But one of the great things about GPL is the real racing challenge it creates.
And one of the most difficult (and rewarding) challenges involves a faster car
lapping a slower one. It takes two to tangle, so both have a role to play.

The faster car trying to overtake needs to do more than just find an opening and
go for it. He needs to read the situation, communicate his presence in the other
cars mirrors and plan ahead with as much patience as the situation will allow.

The slower car to be overtaken can make the faster car's job easier (and his
own) by driving smoothly and predictably and not trying to postpone the
inevitable. This is not the time to be going for his best lap time. The sooner
the faster car gets by the sooner the slower car and get back to his race.

Marty

> Thanks for all your efforts Jack. Your skills in organising these series on
> a world wide basis are second to none.
> I have to do some venting however. I joined this series as a result of
> thinking it would be a pleasant change from trying to 'race' with all those
> suicide jockeys we come across on VROC. I have to say that I was pretty
> pissed off with some of the driving tonight. Admittedly I only qualified
> last but one on the grid in my Cooper with a time of 1:22.11, but I do not
> see this as an excuse for the faster Lotus drivers to think that they can
> act as bullies to get by, as if they have a god given right to be in front
> of a cooper.I was taken out of this race three times.

> 1. By a Lotus going into turn 2 on lap 1, apparently using me as a brake. He
> must have been doing about 20 mph more than I was.
> 2. I passed a recovering Lotus who had been off the circuit somewhere. after
> taking a lap or two to catch me I was simply arse ended off the track as he
> hit me at the slow left hander at the back of the circuit. Spin spin for me
> and he is off on his merry way into the distance
> 3. After passing a third Lotus (possibly the same driver) who had been
> involved in an altercation with a Ferrari, he caught me after 2-3 laps. Not
> content to outbrake me into turn 1 where it would have been easy for him, he
> decides to take me out at the start finish line trying to pass on the rough
> patch to the left hand side of the track. I was on the usual line on the
> black stuff. one second I am wondering where he is then bang....sideswiped.

> As I said before Jack, I applaud you on your fine efforts but if this is the
> standard of driving here I'll stick with VROC where I know I can at least
> win races with people in my speed range/ability.

> Regards

> Mark

by **Jan Verschuere** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

Well spoken gentlemen.

I wasn't involved in said race, but have had similar experiences online
(mostly on VROC, it has to be said). Apart from the inpatience, I find
general intolerance of slower drivers to be a problem. I get the feeling
some drivers want you to literally pull off the track so they don't even
have to adjust their line to pass. How else would you explain a punt up the
backside going into Stowe after cruising the entire Hangar Straight and
braking well short of the mark? -BTW: No reply when I commented on this
braindead move.

Listen up fast guys: we know we're slower (being outqualified by 5 secs is a
hint ;-)) and we'll extend right of way at the next available opporunity.
For your enjoyment and ours, please be patient. -Thank you.

Jan.
------

><Snip>

by **Mark Seer** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

>I sympathize Mark. In defense of the NTT series and it's drivers I have to
say
>it is as good as I've seen considering it's longer races create lots of
>situations of the leaders lapping other cars.

I have to be fair and say that I may have been a bit hasty in the way I
jumped on my soap box last night. I was having an extremely bad day and this
was the icing on the cake for me.

Jack's series is, as I will readily admit one of the best there is out there
at present. I guess we can just put it down to experience and let these
posts serve as a reminder to all, the importance of maintaining trust and
confidence in each other when taking out lives in our hands ;-). There have
been some very interesting responses here and I guess that we can let
sleeping dogs lie.

BTW had a trouble free run tonight to 6th place and got a PB time, over a
second faster. I guess I nailed that track.

Mark

by **Marty U'Re** » Fri, 26 Mar 1999 04:00:00

I agree, and as I've said previously it is primarily the responsibility of the
faster overtaking car to complete the pass safely.

BUT, when a the faster car is leading a race with the 2nd place car right on his
butt, things are a little intense for him. So, when you see two cars in your
mirrors closing on you quickly, it is particularly important to make way as SOON
as possible.

Having said that, thanks to the driver's in tonight's NTT-AM race for a clean
incident free (from my view) event.

Marty

> Listen up fast guys: we know we're slower (being outqualified by 5 secs is a
> hint ;-)) and we'll extend right of way at the next available opporunity.
> For your enjoyment and ours, please be patient. -Thank you.

> Jan.
> ------

> ><Snip>

rec.autos.simulators

NTT: Driving standards

NTT: Driving standards

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NTT: Driving standards

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NTT: Driving standards

NTT: Driving standards

NTT: Driving standards

NTT: Driving standards

NTT: Driving standards