rec.autos.simulators

IMO, it's as good as any TM wheel I've tried.  Unless you want to
spring for a TSW or ECCI, PC wheels don't get much better.  I think
it's pretty good.

Without a doubt, the best FF effects I've seen are in a game
called Motorhead.  It really pulls you into the game.  The
Viper demo leaves out some effects, but is does something
that nothing else (as far as I know) does - model oversteer/
understeer.  It does take a while to get used to, and to
figure out what it's telling you.  Give it some more
time and you'll be a bit more impressed.

Try turning the wheel in your real car to the side, and see
how close it comes to re-centering.  I understand the point
you are making, but it's really more realistic than if it
perfectly re-centered.  Also, try using the wheel for another
week or two, as the belt system tends to smooth out after
some use.

BTW, you can adjust the ramping of the spring forces so
that it is more progressive from center to the stops.  I'm
guessing you have the bottom slider in the joystick properties
set to 100%.

(clip)
(clip)

I wish they would seperate the pedal axes.  The pedals
already have separate pots and wiring, and apparently,
seperate axes should be possible with just a new driver
release.  With enough demand, maybe it will happen.

--
------------------------------------------------------

IMPACT Motorsports
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
------------------------------------------------------

I know a regular (non-FF) wheel has enhanced my
enjoyment of all racing sims.

--
--------
Jason Monds
(Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

l8er
ronny

--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"

          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

This is exactly the feeling I had about them. They do "jump" in the
beginning, and then the resistance becomes so much smaller you
unintentionally floor it. Might improve with more driving, though (getting
used to it and also more seldom letting go of the pedal completely). TM's
T2, Mad Catz and all the Mad Catz lookalikes seem to have about the same
reasonable pedals. TM's wheel is the best I've tried, then comes Act
Labs(talking just about the wheel here, not pedals) then the springy sucky
Mad Catz and the other crap. Don't quite know where to put FF wheels yet,
only tried Saitek in NFS3, felt pretty good.

I fortunately got to test this at a store. Right now I'm looking for a
good non-FF wheel with no pots and an USB connection. TM's upcoming
digital wheel might be the answer.

I was hoping to buy quality cheap (Act Labs), but alas, that was not to happen.

--
Anssi Lehtinen

 http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS

    and

 http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

I have both the MS FF and ACTLAB Force RS (the latter not for very much
longer). Prior to these, I was using a Thrustmaster GP1. My impressions,
after many hours with both (primarily using GPL and a bit of F1RS).

MS
- very nice easy to use mount (solid and easy to remove), small foot print,
smooth pedals, pedal base is a bit light (sometimes it moves)
- well placed buttons (not paddles) for shifting behind the wheel
- smooth response (no pots, I can set the DINPUT.DLL null zone to 0 without
problem)
- wheel has slight looseness dead center (not bad, but not as smooth as a
bungie sprung wheel)
- reasonable force feedback effects (on F1RS, NFS3, TOCA)
- works with DOS games (GP2, Nascar2)
- separate axis for brake and gas pedals
- needs to connect to joystick/midi port on sound card

ACTLAB
- nice heavy base for pedals, however, there's a lot of friction making it
very difficult to modulate
- for non-FF games, self centering spring force doesn't work in some
games!!! (including GPL) - as a result, must overcome significant motor
friction to unwind the wheel (more friction than MS wheel)
- single axis for brake and gas (pressing both pedals is the same as not
pressing either)
- nice simulated leather wheel, flimsy, poorly placed shifter paddle (paddle
is at 9 and 3 o'clock, while wheel spokes are at 10 and 2, making it
difficult shift and press spoke buttons from one hand position on wheel)
- very strong and smooth force feedback effects (better that MS wheel)
- takes a lot of deskspace and clamps are not as easy to use as MS wheel
- doesn't work with DOS games
- connects to serial port

Overall, I found the MS wheel much better - eager to see a comparison with
the upcoming Thrustmaster and Logitech force wheels. Areas where they might
be better than the MS wheel are: smoothness in non-FF games (MS is
reasonably smooth), and better FF effects, USB port support, heavier pedal
base.

Norm

After I canceled my ForceRS order, I called both Logitech and TM to ask
about their FF wheels. Logitech told me that their wheel was shipping
within the next 2 weeks, while TM would give no date. Apparently the
TM wheel has packaging problems. Both wheels claim DOS support
(I asked reps at both companies. Um then again I asked Actlabs too)
and both wheels use the Serial port I believe.

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% After I canceled my ForceRS order, I called both Logitech and TM to ask
% about their FF wheels. Logitech told me that their wheel was shipping
% within the next 2 weeks, while TM would give no date. Apparently the
% TM wheel has packaging problems. Both wheels claim DOS support
% (I asked reps at both companies. Um then again I asked Actlabs too)
% and both wheels use the Serial port I believe.

I understand (it is unofficial) that TM should have some units in
BestBuy and CompUSA around Thanksgiving.  Also the TM should offer
both serial or USB.  Suggested retail is $179.95, available outside
North America as Formula Force GT (Bernie was asking too much for
the #1).

--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
     Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./.  [-  < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Thanks

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Basically- i felt the Force RS wasn't right for me- poor flipper design, and
it felt like the wheel in my car- not a race car.
Likewise, the Logitech Wheel i felt was racing nirvana- superb piece of kit.

As it happens, i managed to get my hands on a Saitek R4 FFB at a sweet deal at
the Flight Sim Show at the weekend ;) and it's now sitting on my desk at home.

However it lakcs programmable buttons at the moment- i've been told that the
software shoudl be ready for that function soon- great- i want a change down 5
gears button--- i keep changing down into neutral by mistake 8)

Z.

Well, ECTS is over now, and in between my many meetings I had a chance to
stroll around and sample a few of what the Controller Community has too offer.

Microsoft "Tilt" Controller

Both Intel and Microsoft had these on their stands. If you are familiar with a
Gamepad, well that's exactly what it is. Hooked up to ***'s new Superbike
racing game (which is stunning, and supports Force Feedback in it's own
right), it was pure dynamite. I'm not sure if it is on my shopping list yet-
it felt a little imprecise in this game- I feel it's possibly more suited to
Arcade games, than a sim.

Microsoft Force Feedback Wheel

Microsoft had these babies hooked up to MTM2, and Cart PR- the helpful
Microserf provided the information that the wheel which ship with new builds
of Cart and MTM2 with improved Force Feedback, although he was not sure if the
versions being demo'ed where these or not. In any case, the Force Feedback was
not apparent, and found wanting. The wheel design is solid and feels good, but
with Midi port required (USB "Next year sometime") it's off my shopping list
straight away as I already have a Force Feedback Pro. Nice wheel though, if
the pedals feel a little imprecise.

ACT Labs Force RS

I'd pre-ordered one of these, impressed by the Cartridge system (as I also
have a PSX). The wheel is beautiful finished, solid and has a leatherish feel.
It wouldn't look out of place in your own car. The Force feedback in MTM2
being demo'ed was certainly more impressive that Microsoft's own offering, but
I'm afraid I came away with the feeling that the RS is a perfect wheel for all
the NFS2, Test Drive and the like games out there.

If like me, however you spend your time more in Front of F1RS, or more
sim/racing orientated games, this wheel is out of place- not to say that it is
out of depth, but it just plain out of place. The real weak point is the
hopeless effort at flippers behind the wheel. God knows how you are supposed
to hit those every time. It's nice, and I might get an RS for my Playstation,
but the Force RS is off my PC Shopping List.

Saitek S4 Force Feedback

Hooked up to a Beta of Colin McRae's Rally, this wheel is quite nice- great
pedals, and the wheel is well equipped with both flippers and a right hand
side mounted gear stick. Only two buttons are on the wheel itself, any this
might become a factor dependent on what game you are playing. Steering Lock
feels a bit longer than some wheels, but the wheel feels authentic, and it is
a fine racing wheel- Top 2 for the show.

Destiny Force Feedback

Hooked up to Sega Rally (PC) you do have to from the outset wonder about the
choice of game for demo. It's not a bad wheel per se.... just that the look is
distinctly Mad Katz, and looks well out of place against all the racing
wheels. Maybe a bit too similar to the Rumble Force PSX wheel for it's own
good.

Thrustmaster NASCAR/F1 Force GT

Despite the on wheel stickering as the NASCAR Force GT, (Nascar? we do turn
right on our race tracks over here), this wheel will be shipped to Europe
as the F1 Force Gt. It's basically the Current NASCAR/F1 Wheel with a few
tricks under the plastic covers. Like the Saitek, it comes with both flippers
and a stick.

That is to say there might be a few tricks under there, but they certainly
were not coming out to play. Sunday had the wheel kind of juddering a bit
under Cart PR Steam, but come Monday morning, Jason Sampson (UK Product
Manager) & cronies were beating their PC's in frustration. On Tuesday, the
Monitor and PC seemed to remain switched off all day.

Logitech Force Feedback Wheel

Nirvana. No other answer. Great wheel, not quite so great pedals, but great
wheel. Did I mention the wheel is great? Hooked up on Logitech's stand to
F1RS, and on Ubisoft's stand to F1RS2/Monaco GP Sim, it is pure heaven. Nice
feedback, wonderfully precise input, and got myself a free Joystick (alas not
the Force Feedback Model) for beating 1:31 at Silverstone in F1RS. (My
Flatmate got the 3rd best time of the day, but that's another story).

I have no hesitation in selling a lung to buy this wheel. It's looks, and
feels great. It's precise, nice number of buttons, and great position of the
flippers. All it lacks is the gear shifter (which in moments of TOCA Passion I
prefer to use), but it's simply at the top of my list.

Additionally, while the TM has slipped ;) a loooooong way, the Logitech wheel
is out this friday, and the R4 was out last friday.

Z.

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