rec.autos.simulators

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

Randy Magrud

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Randy Magrud » Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:00:00


>Anyone who develops native support for the best card will get my
>money,

And I could reply by saying that anyone who develops native support
for my Riva 128 will get MY money, and a Stealth II owner will say
that whoever supports the v2x00 will get HIS money, etc.  This isn't
in the long term best interests of anyone.  There is a very good
interview with Brian Hook and John Carmack in the latest boot magazine
in which DirectX v. OpenGL v Native is discussed at length.  They make
a pretty compelling argument for OpenGL.  If in fact OpenGL is
superior to DirectX and support can be done for the leading chip
manufacturers, then that's the way to go.  At a certain point, the
companies will begin optimizing their chipsets and drivers for that
standard API rather than a proprietary API, and the goals of a common
API and best-possible hardware performance will begin to converge.

I do agree that Direct3D is sort of the least common denominator
approach and am not thrilled with that, but I'd rather that than a
fragmented market in which developers either have to develop natively
to several different board manufacturers or risk cutting out large
numbers of customers from their games.  Look at where Sierra got by
betting on Rendition.  When they did so it looked like a good idea:
Rendition had the best price/performance ratio and the 3DFX was still
a high-end, expensive chip.  Then prices fell and memory got cheaper,
and the 3DFX suddenly became a mainstream video board instead of a
niche board, and Rendition was suddenly behind.  All those people who
wanted 3DFX NASCAR 2 were left out in the cold on that one, and yet it
doesn't help Sierra either because many 3DFX owners will pass on
NASCAR 2 simply because it doesn't use their board.  No one wins.

I respect it when a guy like Carmack who knows the business and knows
the APIs says that a common API is the way to go -- he just thinks
that it SHOULD be OpenGL and NOT DirectX.

Randy

Randy Magrud

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Randy Magrud » Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:00:00



>>Direct3D is IMHO the way to go.  

>Not if developer's want my money, it isn't. I don't want to suffer
>inferior graphics and frame-rates just so the developer can reach more
>users with a "lowest common denominator" solution like D3D.

Given that there are fast competitors now to 3DFX such as the Riva 128
chipset and the Rendition v2200, my opinion is that I DO want to see a
standard API evolve, but everything I've read to date says that's
OpenGL. But the reality is that Direct3D is the one everyone has to
write to now, so I don't mind 3DFX specific ports as long as there is
a Direct3D equivalent so my Riva 128 can still run it.  Its these
"3dfx-only" games that really bug me.  I'd rather buy games based upon
content, instead of whether or not they support my card.

Randy

Jo

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Jo » Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:00:00


>And I could reply by saying that anyone who develops native support
>for my Riva 128 will get MY money, and a Stealth II owner will say
>that whoever supports the v2x00 will get HIS money, etc.  This isn't
>in the long term best interests of anyone.  

But it is in the *short* term interests of anyone who wants the best
*** experience possible. And that, clearly, is Glide games on 3dfx.
And as a hard-core gamer I don't really care about the long-term - if
some other 3d card is so much better than Vodoo (and Voodoo2) that it
becomes a suported standard, fine, I'll buy it. Until then I want the
best games possible.

Joe

Ronald Stoeh

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Ronald Stoeh » Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:00:00



snip
>  Then prices fell and memory got cheaper,
> and the 3DFX suddenly became a mainstream video board instead of a
> niche board, and Rendition was suddenly behind.  All those people who
> wanted 3DFX NASCAR 2 were left out in the cold on that one, and yet it
> doesn't help Sierra either because many 3DFX owners will pass on
> NASCAR 2 simply because it doesn't use their board.  No one wins.

Guess what, the Nascar2 3Dfx port is on it's way! ;^)

l8er
ronny

--
          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

John Walla

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by John Walla » Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:00:00



>>Anyone who develops native support for the best card will get my
>>money,

>And I could reply by saying that anyone who develops native support
>for my Riva 128 will get MY money, and a Stealth II owner will say
>that whoever supports the v2x00 will get HIS money, etc.

Read what I wrote - "the best card", not "a 3dFX" or "Stealh II" or
whatever. If the card delivers the performance and is marketed well
(the other point I touched on) people will buy it in flocks and game
developers will follow. Down that road lies the best situation - the
best card, sold to the most people, and used to the full extent of
it's capabilities. 3dFX is only the current example, Voodoo2 might be
the next.

Agreed. I would far rather see card manufacturers try to come up to a
minimum standard for the API rather than game developers drop down to
the standard. That is undoubtedly best for everyone in the long term.
At the moment however, a swift glance at CART Precision Racing versus
Ubisoft's F1 Racing Simulation will illustrate the problem better than
any thousand words of mine.

3dFX did, big time, as did I. I've got a 3dFX board that I'm delighted
with, and many many excellent titles, all with 3dFX support. I doubt
that I could see games like F1RS, FIFA98, Turok etc look anything like
as good as they do currently had 3dFX not won out.

That there should be a common API is beyond question, since it takes
away the element of risk and ensures that ALL games will be delivered
with good support, rather than some with excellent and some with poor.
In current form I don't think DirectX is good enough, hence my
response to ymenard's e***ment. Whether it is OpenGL or DirectX that
wins over is immaterial, I'm primarily looking for quality. I think
there's a lot of anti-Microsoft sentiment in the OpenGL argument,
rather than purely considering the issues at hand.

Cheers!
John

John Walla

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by John Walla » Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:00:00


>But it is in the *short* term interests of anyone who wants the best
>*** experience possible. And that, clearly, is Glide games on 3dfx.
>And as a hard-core gamer I don't really care about the long-term - if
>some other 3d card is so much better than Vodoo (and Voodoo2) that it
>becomes a suported standard, fine, I'll buy it. Until then I want the
>best games possible.

Agreed. Right now I want 3dFX, since it is the best solution currently
available. If Voodoo2 delivers everything it looks set to, I'll buy
one of those if the software support is there. I want the very best
product I can get, and if that means switching hardware to do so then
I'll happily do that.

At the same time I also recognise that not everyone can do that
(money, knowledge, can't be arsed) so for them I also hope that an
OpenGL/D3D/??? API is around that can cope with whatever card they
have. I just don't want that API standard to compromise the potential
of future software, as we have seen until now with D3D.

Cheers!
John

Paul Sander

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Paul Sander » Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:00:00

Did you download the latest Viper driver from http://www.diamondmm.com??

-Paul


>I just bought the Diamond Viper 330, and I'm a little disapointed.
>Diamond says they will have open GL drivers for win95 soon for this
>card, but does that mean I will be able to play the "Glide" version of
>CPR? Is OpenGL the same thing as Glide? Dean, or anybody from the Cart
>team please let me know if it is worth keeping the Viper or if I need to
>get a 3dfx card to run the upcoming CART patch?

>Mike

Randy Magrud

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Randy Magrud » Wed, 03 Dec 1997 04:00:00


>Read what I wrote - "the best card", not "a 3dFX" or "Stealh II" or
>whatever. If the card delivers the performance and is marketed well
>(the other point I touched on) people will buy it in flocks and game
>developers will follow.

So you're saying everyone will buy "the" card and other companies
should just fold up their tents and go home?

F1 Racing won't run on my Stingray 3D with a Voodoo Rush in it.  It
claims the 3DFX is missing, even though the proper version of Glide is
installed and the 3DFX glide samples run just fine.  This happened on
two entirely different machines so I don't think its me.  At any rate,
F1 looks a lot cleaner on my Riva 128 in Direct3D than CPR does.  I
think CPR needs some gamma correction.  Even when it looks good, its
nearly impossible to see any other drivers in the mirrors or way up
ahead.

Wonderful for you, but you don't have NASCAR 2 3DFX (at least not
yet).  That's my point.  NASCAR 2 was released a full year ago with
Rendition support in it and all that time any NASCAR fan with a 3DFX
was forced to run the thing non-accelerated.  The same is true for
those that have Rendition boards that want to run stuff thats been
done for Glide.  My point is that you may be happy with the mix you
got for your board.  You're also just one person.

I suggest you read the interview if you can, or I can send the
magazine to you.  The two guys get very technical over what they ran
into trying to do Quake for Rendition, DirectX and OpenGL.

Randy

John Walla

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by John Walla » Wed, 03 Dec 1997 04:00:00



>So you're saying everyone will buy "the" card and other companies
>should just fold up their tents and go home?

Now Randy, you're putting words in my mouth :)  Certainly _I_ will buy
"the" card, but others certainly won't (as evidenced by the number of
unfortunates still buying the sadder cards on the market). For that
reason some form of API is still very much a marketable proposition.
Equally, provided that a card can engender sufficient software support
and show a clear performance gap to the trailing pack, a market will
exist for a top quality "native" product, which also supports the
standard API. This is more of a risk, but 3dFX certainly carried it
off in the current generation. Flexible, responsive marketing,
reacting to market demand and close support with developers - it's
certainly possible.

I haven't seen the D3D version of F1RS, but I would be happy in
speculating that it is eclipsed by the native Glide version both in
looks and in frame-rate. That's not to say that the D3D version is
bad, quite the oppoiste, just that while owners will be happy they
cannot realise the full potential.

Actually NASCAR2 3dFX is a matter of indifference to me, since IMO it
runs perfectly well without 3dFX and adding 3dFX support will not
bring anything for me that I get e***d about. Anyway, please
continue... :)

I know, and I fully acknowledged that what I said was my personal
point of view - I also outlined the contrary viewpoint. You need to
consider that the software products that I am interested in are few,
and I am quite prepared to make a hardware buying decision based upon
the one or two pieces of software I am truly interested in. In this
case I bought 3dFX, since neither ICR2 nor NASCAR2 require 3D
acceleration IMO. For that reason I plumped for 3dFX, since I believed
Rendition would not prevail and future products would be unlikely to
be coded only for that card. Take Grand Prix Legends as an example,
and assume that the Voodoo2 is the best card by far. I would much
rather see GPL coded native "Glide2" and being the best sim possible,
than have D3D implemented and allow us all to run at less than it's
full potential. That is provided of course that it runs acceptably
unaccelerated, or if not that D3D is also available for those with
less capable hardware.

I generally dislike seeing products I'm interested in being cut back
in any way, but it is difficult to generalise on such a subject since
everyone and every product has different requirements and
expectations. IMO the majority will handle itself, since that's where
the money is. I'm looking at the high-end and wanting the best I can
find.

Sorry Randy, I should have been more specific. I wasn't referring to
that discussion, more the D3D/OpenGL debate in general. Among those
who are informed the argument is generally made on it's own merits,
but when the argument drops down to the newsgroups it mainly seems to
be a "bash Microsoft" rant, something I dislike and find tiresome. The
interview you referred to was most deciedly not that.

Cheers!
John

Ronald Stoeh

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Ronald Stoeh » Wed, 03 Dec 1997 04:00:00


snip
> Actually NASCAR2 3dFX is a matter of indifference to me, since IMO it
> runs perfectly well without 3dFX and adding 3dFX support will not
> bring anything for me that I get e***d about. Anyway, please
> continue... :)

snip
> I know, and I fully acknowledged that what I said was my personal
> point of view - I also outlined the contrary viewpoint. You need to
> consider that the software products that I am interested in are few,
> and I am quite prepared to make a hardware buying decision based upon
> the one or two pieces of software I am truly interested in. In this
> case I bought 3dFX, since neither ICR2 nor NASCAR2 require 3D
> acceleration IMO.

You mentioned several times that Nascar2 would not require 3D
acceleration.
What kind of PC are u using??? On my P200, 64MB, Intergraph Intense 3D I
still would like to have MORE frames per seconds. Without the Rendition
you have to switch off A LOT of details to get a good frame rate...

I'm not flaming, just curious! ;^)

l8er
ronny

--
          |\      _,,,---,,_        I want to die like my Grandfather,
   ZZZzz /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_              in his sleep.
        |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'     Not like the people in his car,
       '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)            screaming their heads off!

Brian Bus

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by Brian Bus » Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:00:00

I think icr2 and n2 have a built in 30 fps limit.  Certainly icr2 on my p200/
rendition system time warps if the frame rate goes over 30.  It looks smooth as
silk but is undrivable in a 'warp 9, mr sulu' kind of way.  Non rendition users
can get reasonable frame rates with details off on higher processors.  If you
want to see icr2 do 70 fps (in bursts) try the alt key cheats - I think alt-x
gives you the fastest graphics combination and switches off the frame rate/
real time controller. alt-t toggles the limiter and there are various others in
the readme file

Brian.


>> I know, and I fully acknowledged that what I said was my personal
>> point of view - I also outlined the contrary viewpoint. You need to
>> consider that the software products that I am interested in are few,
>> and I am quite prepared to make a hardware buying decision based upon
>> the one or two pieces of software I am truly interested in. In this
>> case I bought 3dFX, since neither ICR2 nor NASCAR2 require 3D
>> acceleration IMO.

>You mentioned several times that Nascar2 would not require 3D
>acceleration.
>What kind of PC are u using??? On my P200, 64MB, Intergraph Intense 3D I
>still would like to have MORE frames per seconds. Without the Rendition
>you have to switch off A LOT of details to get a good frame rate...

>I'm not flaming, just curious! ;^)

John Walla

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by John Walla » Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:00:00

On Tue, 02 Dec 1997 17:34:25 +0100, Ronald Stoehr


>You mentioned several times that Nascar2 would not require 3D
>acceleration.
>What kind of PC are u using??? On my P200, 64MB, Intergraph Intense 3D I
>still would like to have MORE frames per seconds. Without the Rendition
>you have to switch off A LOT of details to get a good frame rate...

I am using a iP225MMX (3x75Mhz), 64Mb 50ns EDO, Intergraph Reactor. I
find the frame-rate in NASCAR2 to be perfectly fine, even with the BGN
track pack that others have complained of (this is in "non-Rendition"
mode).

I've never actually measured the frame-rate, since it's a bit of a
pain to do in Papyrus sims. I do however "perceive" it to be fine, and
when I checked SODA (which I also perceived to be fine) I had 25-30
fps. Pretty acceptable I think.

Cheers!
John

JulianDat

CPR Does Glide=3dfx?

by JulianDat » Sat, 06 Dec 1997 04:00:00

WHEN they fix all the problems with it. MS HAS the resources to fix it!! But it's all political right now.

3D accelerator cards will not do the same

Haha.. Creative is a joke..

  OpenGL and Direct3D will win the
The "only" why I think it kicks ***on this chipset is because of the "agp" variant..

Where did you get this?? Hmm.. Odd.. I am not "snobbish" as you say. Once you have seen a 3dFX game. You will won't look back!<G>

Sure does, but in real life, I have heard there is not the much difference in the forms of PCI to PCI versions. bTW,  "do you race with benchmarks?"

But, why would one compare a video card from PCI to AGP??? Does NOT makes sense to me.

 Also, goto the APEX site for CPR, look in the benchmark area. See what card is ahead.. in fps. Granted the STB's drivers are still in "infancy" stages..

Prolly won because of AGP. Don't get me wrong, it's nice card and everything, but don't bet your laurels on benchmarks.

take care.. JD

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