rec.autos.simulators

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

Larr

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Larr » Sat, 31 Aug 2002 10:48:23

Mitch,

You got some of it right :)

MacOS X is not based on Linux.  It is based on UNIX and the Mach 5 Kernal..

It uses the Mach 5 Kernal developed at Carnagie Mellon University.  The
designer of the Mach Kernal, Avie Tevanian, just so happens to be Apple's
Chief Software Architect.  That sure worked out well :)

Think of Avie as Linus Torvlalds.  They both created the UNIX kernal that
MacOS X (Mach) and Linux (Linux) run on.

On top of that is BSD Unix 4.3.

On top of that is the MacOS X Interface.

Yes, it can be compred to Linux, as it's design is familiar, it just uses
different Kernals and Windowing systems.

Of course, the stability of both is superb.  There is, however, no Windowing
Interface for Unix that can touch MacOS X for useability.  That's why Apple
has succedded in getting Unix on the home-user desktop where others have
failed (so far).

Now, as for porting to X86.  Is it possible?  Not only possible, but likely
very easy to do.

MacOS X is based on what was originally the NextStep/OpenStep Operating
System that Steve Jobs developed for Next in the mid-80's after Apple
shit-canned him.  It began life, as a matter of fact, as an x86 operating
system.

The original versions of MacOS X Server (called Rhapsody at the time - This
was before the MacOS X naming convention was initiated) was available in
both PowerPC and x86 flavors.  I still have both of them around here
somewhere because I was a registered (but not paticularly active) developer
at the time.

Apple discontinued all x86 Rhapsody development at some point, and
concentrated on the PowerPC/Mac platform.

Which brings us to where we are today.  MacOS X, as we know it today, has
very little resemblance to Rhapsody.  Some of the concepts are the same, but
where Rhapsody mostly retained the NextStep/OpenStep interface (which wasn't
bad in itself), MacOS X uses what we see as a combination of the old MacOS
Classic Interface and new stuff/idea's/technologies.  Most of it is great.
A very little bit of it bugs people.  Such is life :)

So, yes.  It is technically feasible.  Politically, however, it is not.
Apple gets 85% of it's revenue from hardware sales, and at least at this
point they are not going to take a chance on messing that up.  Look at what
the first thing Jobs did when he took over in 1996.  He discontinued the
cloning program that had just barely gotten off the ground a year or so
before!

Do _I_ want to see MacOS X on x86?  You damned right I do.

What I'm about to say now is also politically incorrect if you are speaking
amongst Die-Hard Mac Users, especially the more, um, 'verbal' one's.  You
know, the one's that treasure the stupid 'Switch' commercials :)

IMHO (and many others), Motorola is NOT pulling thier weight in regards to
the PowerPC.  Development is just too damned slow.  We are just now getting
up to 1.25Ghz G4's.  Now, the level-headed Mac Users amongst us, of which I
hope I'm considered one, never have bought into the "PPC kicks Intels Ass
and is 6 times faster at a given clock speed" horseshit.  Is it faster?
Absolutely.  Is it 6 times faster?  No way.  I won't put a number on it
because I'd be guessing or lying like those who say it's 6 times faster.
All the benchmarks that everyone throws around are useless because the tests
are massaged by one side or the other to make theirs look better.  Both
sides are guilty of this IMHO.  But the PPC IS faster at a given clockspeed
than the x86 family.  That's just the way RISC is.

With that in mind, SOMETHING has to be done.  There are some holding hope
that IBM will release a G5 processor, with Altivec (think MMX/SSE)
compatible instructions.  They have to use a 'compatible' set because
Motorola owns Altivec exclusively and apparantly won't share it with IBM.
This would allow Apple to continue on the PowerPC road.  It would, of
course, be the easiest road to travel.

Unfortunately, I don't buy unto all this G5 stuff.  I think Motorola has
enough on their plate, especially in this dreadful economy we have, to be
involved in this at the level that Apple NEEDS.

I do hope I'm wrong about that.  But, I'm certainly not the only one that
feels this way.

Now for the tricky part, and the part where you have to duck if you are in
strict Apple Quarters :)

First, Apple WILL survive.  It does just fine on it's current marketshare,
and has 25 million (and slowly growing, actually) users.  They make a fine
product that is fast, reliable and satisfies the needs of certain user
groups, especially home users, content creators, and certain
business/scientific segments.  Personally, I think Education is a lost cause
for them.  Microsoft has forced their nose into this in some interesting
(read that as you will) ways.  I think Apple will always maintain a 20-25%
of the Education Market, but never get back to the 60-70% share they used to
have unless something truly spectacular happens.

It doesn't help to have billions in the bank and zero long-term debt :)

I firmly believe that MacOS X (and not stupid 'switch' commercials) will
build Apple's Market Share slowly but surely.

BUT...

If Apple is to grow, and I mean seriously grow, they HAVE to do something
about this processor (some real, some perceived) problem, and I personally
think their salvation is...

AMD.

This is about the time the shit hits the fan in this conversation :)

Too many people think this is just impossible.  I know damned well it isn't
because MacOS X's roots are based on a Kernal/OS/Layer that was, originally,
x86 based.  AMD is excellent at creating both processors and, more
importantly, the chipsets to drive them.

Some people say the developers would never go for it because they would have
to re-write all thier software.  These people forget that Apple has done
this BEFORE, when they switched from the 680x0 processor family to the PPC
processor family.  If anyone could pull this off, it would be Apple.  Apple
is also very talented at gluing seemingly incompatible platforms together
and ending up with a pretty much seemless package.

Would developers have to, at a minimum, re-compile thier apps?  Of course.
But I've read some articles on this that would indicate it's not as hard as
the die-hards make it out to be.  Since some of these people were coders,
I'll take their word for that.

Others say that if Apple were to do this, it would put them in direct
competition with Microsoft and that would kill them instantly.  Again, I say
horseshit.  Just because Apple is using x86 processors does not mean they
are going to let EVERYONE use it.  No, I do believe Apple would continue to
make MacOS X an APPLE ONLY operating system.  They simply cannot, at this
time, give up their hardware sales.

Finally, the question that everyone asks everyone these days.  Does Apple
need Microsoft to survive?  Personally, I don't think so.  Office V.x is
excellent, and is arguably the best version of Office for any platform that
MS has ever shipped.  They even think it's the best version they have ever
shipped.  It can, however, be replaced by someone else.

I personally think the most compelling piece of software Microsoft has
shipped for the Mac in a long time is also the most unlikely.  The most
excellent TS/RDC client they shipped at MacWorld in August.  For free.  This
one little piece of software gave Mac OS X users full access and use of
nearly every personal and business software package MS has ever written.

Damn, I don't know how I got so deep into this so me go now :)

-Larry

"Mitch_A" <namannos...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:VVwb9.122$A%5.6533233@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> Why can't a port of Jaguar be developed for the X86?  It is based on the
> Linux kernel no?  Now that would be great, MS ends up falling to apple not
> because Apple hardware but rather an Apple OS :)

> WPA has gotten me numerous times also.  I finally just did a base install,
> created an image and I'm now done with WPA.  Supposedly WPA uses the
vendor
> ID's of key hardware and should only prompt for WPA when you change 5 ID's
> in any re-install.  Reality is quite different though.

> Those ad's are really annoying arent they?  Gee I'm too dum to use a PC,
so
> I use an Apple... Gimme a break Steve...

> Mitch

> "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:Mstb9.25270$Or1.1451252@news2.east.cox.net...
> > Well, I have a Mac too (ducking)  :)  LCD iMac G4.

> > I just installed Jaguar on it yesterday.  While I still have gripes
about
> > the pricing system used, it's an awesome upgrade.  The performance
> > improvements alone are astonishing (if you have recent hardware, that
is).
> > MacOS X 10.2 is really a hard-core OS and it's a shame that more don't
> > experience it.  I thing that is slowly changing, though (Despite the
> current
> > stupid 'switch' Ad campaign).

> > Anyway, back to MS.

> > WPA has pissed on me FIVE times so far.  For such a 'benign' and 'If
your
> > legal it won't be a problem' technology, it sure is a pain in the ass to
> > THIS legal user.

> > Two, and possibly three of the times there was ZERO hardware changes
made.
> > I was simply updating drivers and it pissed on me and I had to call
> > Microsoft to get permission again to use my paid-for operating system.
> That
> > just burns me up.

> > One time it just popped for no apparant reason.  Started up,. and the
> stupid
> > activation nonsense kicked in.  This was months after the original
> > installation and activation.

> > And it triggered during one hardware change once.  When I upgraded the
> Video
> > card.  It's not supposed to do that either.

> > Bastards.

> > -Larry

> > "The Man With No Name" <no@email_sorry.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:6lummuo2fl7ij4dnsd1jpq1i8n9c9mh11h@4ax.com...
> > > On Mon, 26 Aug 2002 20:39:54 GMT, "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote:

> > > >Well, in all honesty, Win98 (I refuse to use SE) is more compatible
> than
> > XP.

> > > >However, overall, I prefer XP.  It runs

...

read more »

Mitch_

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Mitch_ » Sat, 31 Aug 2002 11:34:36

Thanks for the info Larry :-)

We may have to start calling you Tom Jr after that, hehe..

Mitch

"Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message

news:H9Ab9.26496$Or1.1528019@news2.east.cox.net...
> Mitch,

> You got some of it right :)

> MacOS X is not based on Linux.  It is based on UNIX and the Mach 5
Kernal..

> It uses the Mach 5 Kernal developed at Carnagie Mellon University.  The
> designer of the Mach Kernal, Avie Tevanian, just so happens to be Apple's
> Chief Software Architect.  That sure worked out well :)

> Think of Avie as Linus Torvlalds.  They both created the UNIX kernal that
> MacOS X (Mach) and Linux (Linux) run on.

> On top of that is BSD Unix 4.3.

> On top of that is the MacOS X Interface.

> Yes, it can be compred to Linux, as it's design is familiar, it just uses
> different Kernals and Windowing systems.

> Of course, the stability of both is superb.  There is, however, no
Windowing
> Interface for Unix that can touch MacOS X for useability.  That's why
Apple
> has succedded in getting Unix on the home-user desktop where others have
> failed (so far).

> Now, as for porting to X86.  Is it possible?  Not only possible, but
likely
> very easy to do.

> MacOS X is based on what was originally the NextStep/OpenStep Operating
> System that Steve Jobs developed for Next in the mid-80's after Apple
> shit-canned him.  It began life, as a matter of fact, as an x86 operating
> system.

> The original versions of MacOS X Server (called Rhapsody at the time -
This
> was before the MacOS X naming convention was initiated) was available in
> both PowerPC and x86 flavors.  I still have both of them around here
> somewhere because I was a registered (but not paticularly active)
developer
> at the time.

> Apple discontinued all x86 Rhapsody development at some point, and
> concentrated on the PowerPC/Mac platform.

> Which brings us to where we are today.  MacOS X, as we know it today, has
> very little resemblance to Rhapsody.  Some of the concepts are the same,
but
> where Rhapsody mostly retained the NextStep/OpenStep interface (which
wasn't
> bad in itself), MacOS X uses what we see as a combination of the old MacOS
> Classic Interface and new stuff/idea's/technologies.  Most of it is great.
> A very little bit of it bugs people.  Such is life :)

> So, yes.  It is technically feasible.  Politically, however, it is not.
> Apple gets 85% of it's revenue from hardware sales, and at least at this
> point they are not going to take a chance on messing that up.  Look at
what
> the first thing Jobs did when he took over in 1996.  He discontinued the
> cloning program that had just barely gotten off the ground a year or so
> before!

> Do _I_ want to see MacOS X on x86?  You damned right I do.

> What I'm about to say now is also politically incorrect if you are
speaking
> amongst Die-Hard Mac Users, especially the more, um, 'verbal' one's.  You
> know, the one's that treasure the stupid 'Switch' commercials :)

> IMHO (and many others), Motorola is NOT pulling thier weight in regards to
> the PowerPC.  Development is just too damned slow.  We are just now
getting
> up to 1.25Ghz G4's.  Now, the level-headed Mac Users amongst us, of which
I
> hope I'm considered one, never have bought into the "PPC kicks Intels Ass
> and is 6 times faster at a given clock speed" horseshit.  Is it faster?
> Absolutely.  Is it 6 times faster?  No way.  I won't put a number on it
> because I'd be guessing or lying like those who say it's 6 times faster.
> All the benchmarks that everyone throws around are useless because the
tests
> are massaged by one side or the other to make theirs look better.  Both
> sides are guilty of this IMHO.  But the PPC IS faster at a given
clockspeed
> than the x86 family.  That's just the way RISC is.

> With that in mind, SOMETHING has to be done.  There are some holding hope
> that IBM will release a G5 processor, with Altivec (think MMX/SSE)
> compatible instructions.  They have to use a 'compatible' set because
> Motorola owns Altivec exclusively and apparantly won't share it with IBM.
> This would allow Apple to continue on the PowerPC road.  It would, of
> course, be the easiest road to travel.

> Unfortunately, I don't buy unto all this G5 stuff.  I think Motorola has
> enough on their plate, especially in this dreadful economy we have, to be
> involved in this at the level that Apple NEEDS.

> I do hope I'm wrong about that.  But, I'm certainly not the only one that
> feels this way.

> Now for the tricky part, and the part where you have to duck if you are in
> strict Apple Quarters :)

> First, Apple WILL survive.  It does just fine on it's current marketshare,
> and has 25 million (and slowly growing, actually) users.  They make a fine
> product that is fast, reliable and satisfies the needs of certain user
> groups, especially home users, content creators, and certain
> business/scientific segments.  Personally, I think Education is a lost
cause
> for them.  Microsoft has forced their nose into this in some interesting
> (read that as you will) ways.  I think Apple will always maintain a 20-25%
> of the Education Market, but never get back to the 60-70% share they used
to
> have unless something truly spectacular happens.

> It doesn't help to have billions in the bank and zero long-term debt :)

> I firmly believe that MacOS X (and not stupid 'switch' commercials) will
> build Apple's Market Share slowly but surely.

> BUT...

> If Apple is to grow, and I mean seriously grow, they HAVE to do something
> about this processor (some real, some perceived) problem, and I personally
> think their salvation is...

> AMD.

> This is about the time the shit hits the fan in this conversation :)

> Too many people think this is just impossible.  I know damned well it
isn't
> because MacOS X's roots are based on a Kernal/OS/Layer that was,
originally,
> x86 based.  AMD is excellent at creating both processors and, more
> importantly, the chipsets to drive them.

> Some people say the developers would never go for it because they would
have
> to re-write all thier software.  These people forget that Apple has done
> this BEFORE, when they switched from the 680x0 processor family to the PPC
> processor family.  If anyone could pull this off, it would be Apple.
Apple
> is also very talented at gluing seemingly incompatible platforms together
> and ending up with a pretty much seemless package.

> Would developers have to, at a minimum, re-compile thier apps?  Of course.
> But I've read some articles on this that would indicate it's not as hard
as
> the die-hards make it out to be.  Since some of these people were coders,
> I'll take their word for that.

> Others say that if Apple were to do this, it would put them in direct
> competition with Microsoft and that would kill them instantly.  Again, I
say
> horseshit.  Just because Apple is using x86 processors does not mean they
> are going to let EVERYONE use it.  No, I do believe Apple would continue
to
> make MacOS X an APPLE ONLY operating system.  They simply cannot, at this
> time, give up their hardware sales.

> Finally, the question that everyone asks everyone these days.  Does Apple
> need Microsoft to survive?  Personally, I don't think so.  Office V.x is
> excellent, and is arguably the best version of Office for any platform
that
> MS has ever shipped.  They even think it's the best version they have ever
> shipped.  It can, however, be replaced by someone else.

> I personally think the most compelling piece of software Microsoft has
> shipped for the Mac in a long time is also the most unlikely.  The most
> excellent TS/RDC client they shipped at MacWorld in August.  For free.
This
> one little piece of software gave Mac OS X users full access and use of
> nearly every personal and business software package MS has ever written.

> Damn, I don't know how I got so deep into this so me go now :)

> -Larry

> "Mitch_A" <namannos...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:VVwb9.122$A%5.6533233@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> > Why can't a port of Jaguar be developed for the X86?  It is based on the
> > Linux kernel no?  Now that would be great, MS ends up falling to apple
not
> > because Apple hardware but rather an Apple OS :)

> > WPA has gotten me numerous times also.  I finally just did a base
install,
> > created an image and I'm now done with WPA.  Supposedly WPA uses the
> vendor
> > ID's of key hardware and should only prompt for WPA when you change 5
ID's
> > in any re-install.  Reality is quite different though.

> > Those ad's are really annoying arent they?  Gee I'm too dum to use a PC,
> so
> > I use an Apple... Gimme a break Steve...

> > Mitch

> > "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> > news:Mstb9.25270$Or1.1451252@news2.east.cox.net...
> > > Well, I have a Mac too (ducking)  :)  LCD iMac G4.

> > > I just installed Jaguar on it yesterday.  While I still have gripes
> about
> > > the pricing system used, it's an awesome upgrade.  The performance
> > > improvements alone are astonishing (if you have recent hardware, that
> is).
> > > MacOS X 10.2 is really a hard-core OS and it's a shame that more don't
> > > experience it.  I thing that is slowly changing, though (Despite the
> > current
> > > stupid 'switch' Ad campaign).

> > > Anyway, back to MS.

> > > WPA has pissed on me FIVE times so far.  For such a 'benign' and 'If
> your
> > > legal it won't be a problem' technology, it sure is a pain in the ass
to
> > > THIS legal user.

> > > Two, and possibly three of the times there was ZERO hardware changes
> made.
> > > I was simply updating drivers and it pissed on me and I had to call
> > > Microsoft to get permission again to use my paid-for operating system.
> > That
> > > just burns me up.

> > > One time it just popped for no apparant reason.  Started up,. and the
> > stupid
> > > activation nonsense kicked in.  This was months after the

...

read more »

checkmysignat..

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by checkmysignat.. » Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:17:42



MacOS X is based on BSD.  Doesn't MS invest a lot of money in Apple?
I think MS has a say in whether Apple can make a x86 port.  I remember
reading about MS investing millions in Apple a few years back.  Plus
if they ported it over to x86, they'd lose tons of money from sales of
their hardware.  Why buy an expensive iMac to run MacOS X, when you
can run it on a sub $1000 AMD/Intel PC.  

--
karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

Mitch_

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Mitch_ » Sat, 31 Aug 2002 12:47:19

Looks like Object Desktop is the closest I'll ever get to using OSX then :-)

Mitch




> >Why can't a port of Jaguar be developed for the X86?  It is based on the
> >Linux kernel no?  Now that would be great, MS ends up falling to apple
not
> >because Apple hardware but rather an Apple OS :)

> MacOS X is based on BSD.  Doesn't MS invest a lot of money in Apple?
> I think MS has a say in whether Apple can make a x86 port.  I remember
> reading about MS investing millions in Apple a few years back.  Plus
> if they ported it over to x86, they'd lose tons of money from sales of
> their hardware.  Why buy an expensive iMac to run MacOS X, when you
> can run it on a sub $1000 AMD/Intel PC.

> --
> karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

checkmysignat..

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by checkmysignat.. » Sat, 31 Aug 2002 14:15:18



I often wish the GNOME/KDE guys would just get together and create
something marvelous that would blow OSX out of the water.  If we all
got together, we could do it.  It's just that with Linux, everyone
wants to do their own thing cause they can.  Kernel development is
amazing.  Why can't we do the same with the GUI?

--
karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

Darf

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Darf » Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:10:15

Interesting reading,
and I have never even switched on a mac :-)

Darf

"Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message

news:H9Ab9.26496$Or1.1528019@news2.east.cox.net...
> Mitch,

> You got some of it right :)

> MacOS X is not based on Linux.  It is based on UNIX and the Mach 5
Kernal..

> It uses the Mach 5 Kernal developed at Carnagie Mellon University.  The
> designer of the Mach Kernal, Avie Tevanian, just so happens to be Apple's
> Chief Software Architect.  That sure worked out well :)

> Think of Avie as Linus Torvlalds.  They both created the UNIX kernal that
> MacOS X (Mach) and Linux (Linux) run on.

> On top of that is BSD Unix 4.3.

> On top of that is the MacOS X Interface.

> Yes, it can be compred to Linux, as it's design is familiar, it just uses
> different Kernals and Windowing systems.

> Of course, the stability of both is superb.  There is, however, no
Windowing
> Interface for Unix that can touch MacOS X for useability.  That's why
Apple
> has succedded in getting Unix on the home-user desktop where others have
> failed (so far).

> Now, as for porting to X86.  Is it possible?  Not only possible, but
likely
> very easy to do.

> MacOS X is based on what was originally the NextStep/OpenStep Operating
> System that Steve Jobs developed for Next in the mid-80's after Apple
> shit-canned him.  It began life, as a matter of fact, as an x86 operating
> system.

> The original versions of MacOS X Server (called Rhapsody at the time -
This
> was before the MacOS X naming convention was initiated) was available in
> both PowerPC and x86 flavors.  I still have both of them around here
> somewhere because I was a registered (but not paticularly active)
developer
> at the time.

> Apple discontinued all x86 Rhapsody development at some point, and
> concentrated on the PowerPC/Mac platform.

> Which brings us to where we are today.  MacOS X, as we know it today, has
> very little resemblance to Rhapsody.  Some of the concepts are the same,
but
> where Rhapsody mostly retained the NextStep/OpenStep interface (which
wasn't
> bad in itself), MacOS X uses what we see as a combination of the old MacOS
> Classic Interface and new stuff/idea's/technologies.  Most of it is great.
> A very little bit of it bugs people.  Such is life :)

> So, yes.  It is technically feasible.  Politically, however, it is not.
> Apple gets 85% of it's revenue from hardware sales, and at least at this
> point they are not going to take a chance on messing that up.  Look at
what
> the first thing Jobs did when he took over in 1996.  He discontinued the
> cloning program that had just barely gotten off the ground a year or so
> before!

> Do _I_ want to see MacOS X on x86?  You damned right I do.

> What I'm about to say now is also politically incorrect if you are
speaking
> amongst Die-Hard Mac Users, especially the more, um, 'verbal' one's.  You
> know, the one's that treasure the stupid 'Switch' commercials :)

> IMHO (and many others), Motorola is NOT pulling thier weight in regards to
> the PowerPC.  Development is just too damned slow.  We are just now
getting
> up to 1.25Ghz G4's.  Now, the level-headed Mac Users amongst us, of which
I
> hope I'm considered one, never have bought into the "PPC kicks Intels Ass
> and is 6 times faster at a given clock speed" horseshit.  Is it faster?
> Absolutely.  Is it 6 times faster?  No way.  I won't put a number on it
> because I'd be guessing or lying like those who say it's 6 times faster.
> All the benchmarks that everyone throws around are useless because the
tests
> are massaged by one side or the other to make theirs look better.  Both
> sides are guilty of this IMHO.  But the PPC IS faster at a given
clockspeed
> than the x86 family.  That's just the way RISC is.

> With that in mind, SOMETHING has to be done.  There are some holding hope
> that IBM will release a G5 processor, with Altivec (think MMX/SSE)
> compatible instructions.  They have to use a 'compatible' set because
> Motorola owns Altivec exclusively and apparantly won't share it with IBM.
> This would allow Apple to continue on the PowerPC road.  It would, of
> course, be the easiest road to travel.

> Unfortunately, I don't buy unto all this G5 stuff.  I think Motorola has
> enough on their plate, especially in this dreadful economy we have, to be
> involved in this at the level that Apple NEEDS.

> I do hope I'm wrong about that.  But, I'm certainly not the only one that
> feels this way.

> Now for the tricky part, and the part where you have to duck if you are in
> strict Apple Quarters :)

> First, Apple WILL survive.  It does just fine on it's current marketshare,
> and has 25 million (and slowly growing, actually) users.  They make a fine
> product that is fast, reliable and satisfies the needs of certain user
> groups, especially home users, content creators, and certain
> business/scientific segments.  Personally, I think Education is a lost
cause
> for them.  Microsoft has forced their nose into this in some interesting
> (read that as you will) ways.  I think Apple will always maintain a 20-25%
> of the Education Market, but never get back to the 60-70% share they used
to
> have unless something truly spectacular happens.

> It doesn't help to have billions in the bank and zero long-term debt :)

> I firmly believe that MacOS X (and not stupid 'switch' commercials) will
> build Apple's Market Share slowly but surely.

> BUT...

> If Apple is to grow, and I mean seriously grow, they HAVE to do something
> about this processor (some real, some perceived) problem, and I personally
> think their salvation is...

> AMD.

> This is about the time the shit hits the fan in this conversation :)

> Too many people think this is just impossible.  I know damned well it
isn't
> because MacOS X's roots are based on a Kernal/OS/Layer that was,
originally,
> x86 based.  AMD is excellent at creating both processors and, more
> importantly, the chipsets to drive them.

> Some people say the developers would never go for it because they would
have
> to re-write all thier software.  These people forget that Apple has done
> this BEFORE, when they switched from the 680x0 processor family to the PPC
> processor family.  If anyone could pull this off, it would be Apple.
Apple
> is also very talented at gluing seemingly incompatible platforms together
> and ending up with a pretty much seemless package.

> Would developers have to, at a minimum, re-compile thier apps?  Of course.
> But I've read some articles on this that would indicate it's not as hard
as
> the die-hards make it out to be.  Since some of these people were coders,
> I'll take their word for that.

> Others say that if Apple were to do this, it would put them in direct
> competition with Microsoft and that would kill them instantly.  Again, I
say
> horseshit.  Just because Apple is using x86 processors does not mean they
> are going to let EVERYONE use it.  No, I do believe Apple would continue
to
> make MacOS X an APPLE ONLY operating system.  They simply cannot, at this
> time, give up their hardware sales.

> Finally, the question that everyone asks everyone these days.  Does Apple
> need Microsoft to survive?  Personally, I don't think so.  Office V.x is
> excellent, and is arguably the best version of Office for any platform
that
> MS has ever shipped.  They even think it's the best version they have ever
> shipped.  It can, however, be replaced by someone else.

> I personally think the most compelling piece of software Microsoft has
> shipped for the Mac in a long time is also the most unlikely.  The most
> excellent TS/RDC client they shipped at MacWorld in August.  For free.
This
> one little piece of software gave Mac OS X users full access and use of
> nearly every personal and business software package MS has ever written.

> Damn, I don't know how I got so deep into this so me go now :)

> -Larry

> "Mitch_A" <namannos...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> news:VVwb9.122$A%5.6533233@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> > Why can't a port of Jaguar be developed for the X86?  It is based on the
> > Linux kernel no?  Now that would be great, MS ends up falling to apple
not
> > because Apple hardware but rather an Apple OS :)

> > WPA has gotten me numerous times also.  I finally just did a base
install,
> > created an image and I'm now done with WPA.  Supposedly WPA uses the
> vendor
> > ID's of key hardware and should only prompt for WPA when you change 5
ID's
> > in any re-install.  Reality is quite different though.

> > Those ad's are really annoying arent they?  Gee I'm too dum to use a PC,
> so
> > I use an Apple... Gimme a break Steve...

> > Mitch

> > "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> > news:Mstb9.25270$Or1.1451252@news2.east.cox.net...
> > > Well, I have a Mac too (ducking)  :)  LCD iMac G4.

> > > I just installed Jaguar on it yesterday.  While I still have gripes
> about
> > > the pricing system used, it's an awesome upgrade.  The performance
> > > improvements alone are astonishing (if you have recent hardware, that
> is).
> > > MacOS X 10.2 is really a hard-core OS and it's a shame that more don't
> > > experience it.  I thing that is slowly changing, though (Despite the
> > current
> > > stupid 'switch' Ad campaign).

> > > Anyway, back to MS.

> > > WPA has pissed on me FIVE times so far.  For such a 'benign' and 'If
> your
> > > legal it won't be a problem' technology, it sure is a pain in the ass
to
> > > THIS legal user.

> > > Two, and possibly three of the times there was ZERO hardware changes
> made.
> > > I was simply updating drivers and it pissed on me and I had to call
> > > Microsoft to get permission again to use my paid-for operating system.
> > That
> > > just burns me up.

> > > One time it just popped for no apparant reason.  Started up,. and the
> > stupid
> > > activation nonsense kicked in.  This was months after the original

...

read more »

Rob Adam

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Rob Adam » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 00:58:29

Me too. Until I need XP (for working at home) I have no plans on "upgrading"
to XP. 98SE is just fine for ***. Even if I do go XP sometime in the
future I'll probably dual boot 98SE. Why mess with something that works so
well.

Larr

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Larr » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 05:51:27

Too many chef's in the soup instead of a small group of dedicated
engineer's.

Open source does have some disadvantages.

-Larry




> >Looks like Object Desktop is the closest I'll ever get to using OSX then
:-)

> I often wish the GNOME/KDE guys would just get together and create
> something marvelous that would blow OSX out of the water.  If we all
> got together, we could do it.  It's just that with Linux, everyone
> wants to do their own thing cause they can.  Kernel development is
> amazing.  Why can't we do the same with the GUI?

> --
> karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

Larr

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Larr » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 05:54:54

Apple invests ZERO money in Apple.

The first and only investment they ever made was the token 150 million in
1996 during the great "Jobs & Gates Feel-Good Party".  It was mostly for
show.  Apple had over 2 Billion in the bank and no long term debt when that
went down.

I'm not sure if MS still holds that stock or not.  One thing is clear, they
made quite a small fortune on it.

-Larry



> >Why can't a port of Jaguar be developed for the X86?  It is based on the
> >Linux kernel no?  Now that would be great, MS ends up falling to apple
not
> >because Apple hardware but rather an Apple OS :)

> MacOS X is based on BSD.  Doesn't MS invest a lot of money in Apple?
> I think MS has a say in whether Apple can make a x86 port.  I remember
> reading about MS investing millions in Apple a few years back.  Plus
> if they ported it over to x86, they'd lose tons of money from sales of
> their hardware.  Why buy an expensive iMac to run MacOS X, when you
> can run it on a sub $1000 AMD/Intel PC.

> --
> karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

Larr

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Larr » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 08:42:14

I was afraid of that :)

-Larry

"Mitch_A" <namannos...@pacbell.net> wrote in message

news:0RAb9.1381$kH.37397944@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com...
> Thanks for the info Larry :-)

> We may have to start calling you Tom Jr after that, hehe..

> Mitch

> "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> news:H9Ab9.26496$Or1.1528019@news2.east.cox.net...
> > Mitch,

> > You got some of it right :)

> > MacOS X is not based on Linux.  It is based on UNIX and the Mach 5
> Kernal..

> > It uses the Mach 5 Kernal developed at Carnagie Mellon University.  The
> > designer of the Mach Kernal, Avie Tevanian, just so happens to be
Apple's
> > Chief Software Architect.  That sure worked out well :)

> > Think of Avie as Linus Torvlalds.  They both created the UNIX kernal
that
> > MacOS X (Mach) and Linux (Linux) run on.

> > On top of that is BSD Unix 4.3.

> > On top of that is the MacOS X Interface.

> > Yes, it can be compred to Linux, as it's design is familiar, it just
uses
> > different Kernals and Windowing systems.

> > Of course, the stability of both is superb.  There is, however, no
> Windowing
> > Interface for Unix that can touch MacOS X for useability.  That's why
> Apple
> > has succedded in getting Unix on the home-user desktop where others have
> > failed (so far).

> > Now, as for porting to X86.  Is it possible?  Not only possible, but
> likely
> > very easy to do.

> > MacOS X is based on what was originally the NextStep/OpenStep Operating
> > System that Steve Jobs developed for Next in the mid-80's after Apple
> > shit-canned him.  It began life, as a matter of fact, as an x86
operating
> > system.

> > The original versions of MacOS X Server (called Rhapsody at the time -
> This
> > was before the MacOS X naming convention was initiated) was available in
> > both PowerPC and x86 flavors.  I still have both of them around here
> > somewhere because I was a registered (but not paticularly active)
> developer
> > at the time.

> > Apple discontinued all x86 Rhapsody development at some point, and
> > concentrated on the PowerPC/Mac platform.

> > Which brings us to where we are today.  MacOS X, as we know it today,
has
> > very little resemblance to Rhapsody.  Some of the concepts are the same,
> but
> > where Rhapsody mostly retained the NextStep/OpenStep interface (which
> wasn't
> > bad in itself), MacOS X uses what we see as a combination of the old
MacOS
> > Classic Interface and new stuff/idea's/technologies.  Most of it is
great.
> > A very little bit of it bugs people.  Such is life :)

> > So, yes.  It is technically feasible.  Politically, however, it is not.
> > Apple gets 85% of it's revenue from hardware sales, and at least at this
> > point they are not going to take a chance on messing that up.  Look at
> what
> > the first thing Jobs did when he took over in 1996.  He discontinued the
> > cloning program that had just barely gotten off the ground a year or so
> > before!

> > Do _I_ want to see MacOS X on x86?  You damned right I do.

> > What I'm about to say now is also politically incorrect if you are
> speaking
> > amongst Die-Hard Mac Users, especially the more, um, 'verbal' one's.
You
> > know, the one's that treasure the stupid 'Switch' commercials :)

> > IMHO (and many others), Motorola is NOT pulling thier weight in regards
to
> > the PowerPC.  Development is just too damned slow.  We are just now
> getting
> > up to 1.25Ghz G4's.  Now, the level-headed Mac Users amongst us, of
which
> I
> > hope I'm considered one, never have bought into the "PPC kicks Intels
Ass
> > and is 6 times faster at a given clock speed" horseshit.  Is it faster?
> > Absolutely.  Is it 6 times faster?  No way.  I won't put a number on it
> > because I'd be guessing or lying like those who say it's 6 times faster.
> > All the benchmarks that everyone throws around are useless because the
> tests
> > are massaged by one side or the other to make theirs look better.  Both
> > sides are guilty of this IMHO.  But the PPC IS faster at a given
> clockspeed
> > than the x86 family.  That's just the way RISC is.

> > With that in mind, SOMETHING has to be done.  There are some holding
hope
> > that IBM will release a G5 processor, with Altivec (think MMX/SSE)
> > compatible instructions.  They have to use a 'compatible' set because
> > Motorola owns Altivec exclusively and apparantly won't share it with
IBM.
> > This would allow Apple to continue on the PowerPC road.  It would, of
> > course, be the easiest road to travel.

> > Unfortunately, I don't buy unto all this G5 stuff.  I think Motorola has
> > enough on their plate, especially in this dreadful economy we have, to
be
> > involved in this at the level that Apple NEEDS.

> > I do hope I'm wrong about that.  But, I'm certainly not the only one
that
> > feels this way.

> > Now for the tricky part, and the part where you have to duck if you are
in
> > strict Apple Quarters :)

> > First, Apple WILL survive.  It does just fine on it's current
marketshare,
> > and has 25 million (and slowly growing, actually) users.  They make a
fine
> > product that is fast, reliable and satisfies the needs of certain user
> > groups, especially home users, content creators, and certain
> > business/scientific segments.  Personally, I think Education is a lost
> cause
> > for them.  Microsoft has forced their nose into this in some interesting
> > (read that as you will) ways.  I think Apple will always maintain a
20-25%
> > of the Education Market, but never get back to the 60-70% share they
used
> to
> > have unless something truly spectacular happens.

> > It doesn't help to have billions in the bank and zero long-term debt :)

> > I firmly believe that MacOS X (and not stupid 'switch' commercials) will
> > build Apple's Market Share slowly but surely.

> > BUT...

> > If Apple is to grow, and I mean seriously grow, they HAVE to do
something
> > about this processor (some real, some perceived) problem, and I
personally
> > think their salvation is...

> > AMD.

> > This is about the time the shit hits the fan in this conversation :)

> > Too many people think this is just impossible.  I know damned well it
> isn't
> > because MacOS X's roots are based on a Kernal/OS/Layer that was,
> originally,
> > x86 based.  AMD is excellent at creating both processors and, more
> > importantly, the chipsets to drive them.

> > Some people say the developers would never go for it because they would
> have
> > to re-write all thier software.  These people forget that Apple has done
> > this BEFORE, when they switched from the 680x0 processor family to the
PPC
> > processor family.  If anyone could pull this off, it would be Apple.
> Apple
> > is also very talented at gluing seemingly incompatible platforms
together
> > and ending up with a pretty much seemless package.

> > Would developers have to, at a minimum, re-compile thier apps?  Of
course.
> > But I've read some articles on this that would indicate it's not as hard
> as
> > the die-hards make it out to be.  Since some of these people were
coders,
> > I'll take their word for that.

> > Others say that if Apple were to do this, it would put them in direct
> > competition with Microsoft and that would kill them instantly.  Again, I
> say
> > horseshit.  Just because Apple is using x86 processors does not mean
they
> > are going to let EVERYONE use it.  No, I do believe Apple would continue
> to
> > make MacOS X an APPLE ONLY operating system.  They simply cannot, at
this
> > time, give up their hardware sales.

> > Finally, the question that everyone asks everyone these days.  Does
Apple
> > need Microsoft to survive?  Personally, I don't think so.  Office V.x is
> > excellent, and is arguably the best version of Office for any platform
> that
> > MS has ever shipped.  They even think it's the best version they have
ever
> > shipped.  It can, however, be replaced by someone else.

> > I personally think the most compelling piece of software Microsoft has
> > shipped for the Mac in a long time is also the most unlikely.  The most
> > excellent TS/RDC client they shipped at MacWorld in August.  For free.
> This
> > one little piece of software gave Mac OS X users full access and use of
> > nearly every personal and business software package MS has ever written.

> > Damn, I don't know how I got so deep into this so me go now :)

> > -Larry

> > "Mitch_A" <namannos...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > news:VVwb9.122$A%5.6533233@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com...
> > > Why can't a port of Jaguar be developed for the X86?  It is based on
the
> > > Linux kernel no?  Now that would be great, MS ends up falling to apple
> not
> > > because Apple hardware but rather an Apple OS :)

> > > WPA has gotten me numerous times also.  I finally just did a base
> install,
> > > created an image and I'm now done with WPA.  Supposedly WPA uses the
> > vendor
> > > ID's of key hardware and should only prompt for WPA when you change 5
> ID's
> > > in any re-install.  Reality is quite different though.

> > > Those ad's are really annoying arent they?  Gee I'm too dum to use a
PC,
> > so
> > > I use an Apple... Gimme a break Steve...

> > > Mitch

> > > "Larry" <n...@none.com> wrote in message
> > > news:Mstb9.25270$Or1.1451252@news2.east.cox.net...
> > > > Well, I have a Mac too (ducking)  :)  LCD iMac G4.

> > > > I just installed Jaguar on it yesterday.  While I still have gripes
> > about
> > > > the pricing system used, it's an awesome upgrade.  The performance
> > > > improvements alone are astonishing (if you have recent hardware,
that
> > is).
> > > > MacOS X 10.2 is really a hard-core OS and it's a shame that more
don't
> > > > experience it.  I thing that is slowly changing, though (Despite the
> > > current
> > > > stupid 'switch' Ad campaign).

> > > > Anyway, back to MS.

> > > > WPA has

...

read more »

Larr

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Larr » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 08:42:17

Well, I blew that one LOL!

I meant to say MICROSOFT invests zero in Apple :)

-Larry


> Apple invests ZERO money in Apple.

> The first and only investment they ever made was the token 150 million in
> 1996 during the great "Jobs & Gates Feel-Good Party".  It was mostly for
> show.  Apple had over 2 Billion in the bank and no long term debt when
that
> went down.

> I'm not sure if MS still holds that stock or not.  One thing is clear,
they
> made quite a small fortune on it.

> -Larry




> > >Why can't a port of Jaguar be developed for the X86?  It is based on
the
> > >Linux kernel no?  Now that would be great, MS ends up falling to apple
> not
> > >because Apple hardware but rather an Apple OS :)

> > MacOS X is based on BSD.  Doesn't MS invest a lot of money in Apple?
> > I think MS has a say in whether Apple can make a x86 port.  I remember
> > reading about MS investing millions in Apple a few years back.  Plus
> > if they ported it over to x86, they'd lose tons of money from sales of
> > their hardware.  Why buy an expensive iMac to run MacOS X, when you
> > can run it on a sub $1000 AMD/Intel PC.

> > --
> > karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

Mitch_

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Mitch_ » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 11:59:34

Actually, with Object Desktop http://www.stardock.com/products/odnt/ you
have an amazing amount of control over the GUI.  You can make XP look just
like Gnome, OSX, or really whatever you want.  It is only skin deep though!
Great for Kiosks and Corperate desktop where you want to restrict access to
all but a few apps.

No, I don't work for em hehe.  I do recognize a good product though :)

A trail is available for 30 days but 1x is made up of a myriad of components
that don't like to be removed so getting back to original XP is quite an
ordeal.  Version 2 is supposed to bring all the components together in a
much more unified way.

Its quite funny to see people's face when they see OSX on my PC :)

Mitch

----- Original Message -----

Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims



> >Looks like Object Desktop is the closest I'll ever get to using OSX then
:-)

> I often wish the GNOME/KDE guys would just get together and create
> something marvelous that would blow OSX out of the water.  If we all
> got together, we could do it.  It's just that with Linux, everyone
> wants to do their own thing cause they can.  Kernel development is
> amazing.  Why can't we do the same with the GUI?

> --
> karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

Larr

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Larr » Sun, 01 Sep 2002 14:06:41

Hint to all...

Make SURE you go and hit every "Restore Defaults" button you can find before
uninstalling this software, and BEFORE the damn thing expires.

Been there, done that.  The hard way :)

-Larry


> Actually, with Object Desktop http://www.stardock.com/products/odnt/ you
> have an amazing amount of control over the GUI.  You can make XP look just
> like Gnome, OSX, or really whatever you want.  It is only skin deep
though!
> Great for Kiosks and Corperate desktop where you want to restrict access
to
> all but a few apps.

> No, I don't work for em hehe.  I do recognize a good product though :)

> A trail is available for 30 days but 1x is made up of a myriad of
components
> that don't like to be removed so getting back to original XP is quite an
> ordeal.  Version 2 is supposed to bring all the components together in a
> much more unified way.

> Its quite funny to see people's face when they see OSX on my PC :)

> Mitch

> ----- Original Message -----

> Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
> Sent: Thursday, August 29, 2002 10:15 PM
> Subject: Re: ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims



> > >Looks like Object Desktop is the closest I'll ever get to using OSX
then
> :-)

> > I often wish the GNOME/KDE guys would just get together and create
> > something marvelous that would blow OSX out of the water.  If we all
> > got together, we could do it.  It's just that with Linux, everyone
> > wants to do their own thing cause they can.  Kernel development is
> > amazing.  Why can't we do the same with the GUI?

> > --
> > karkrazy AT softhome DOT net

Chris H

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Chris H » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 09:07:15

It is 120 days (four months) when the "count" gets reset.  See
http://www.aumha.org/a/wpa.htm
--
Chris H.
Microsoft MVP - Windows XP
Associate Expert
Expert Zone - www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone


>> Well, I have a Mac too (ducking)  :)  LCD iMac G4.

>> I just installed Jaguar on it yesterday.  While I still have gripes
>> about the pricing system used, it's an awesome upgrade.  The
>> performance improvements alone are astonishing (if you have recent
>> hardware, that is). MacOS X 10.2 is really a hard-core OS and it's a
>> shame that more don't experience it.  I thing that is slowly
>> changing, though (Despite the current stupid 'switch' Ad campaign).

>> Anyway, back to MS.

>> WPA has pissed on me FIVE times so far.  For such a 'benign' and 'If
>> your legal it won't be a problem' technology, it sure is a pain in
>> the ass to THIS legal user.

>> Two, and possibly three of the times there was ZERO hardware changes
>> made. I was simply updating drivers and it pissed on me and I had to
>> call Microsoft to get permission again to use my paid-for operating
>> system.  That just burns me up.

>> One time it just popped for no apparant reason.  Started up,. and
>> the stupid activation nonsense kicked in.  This was months after the
>> original installation and activation.

>> And it triggered during one hardware change once.  When I upgraded
>> the Video card.  It's not supposed to do that either.

>> Bastards.

>> -Larry

> Hmmm, I've done many hardware changes since getting XP and I've never
> had a problem yet. You are supposed to be able to make six changes in
> six months without having to reactivate.

Larr

ot-Win XP versus W98se for sims

by Larr » Mon, 02 Sep 2002 12:45:08

I believe the later packages are cross-platform in the box.

-Larry



> >For those that don't want Linux, but want the power and stability of
Unix,
> >don't underestimate MacOS X.  Especially the just-released 10.2 (Jaguar)
> >version.

> >It deserves FAR more credit than it gets, but that is slowly changing
over
> >time.  It gains further respect with each release, and it's truly 'ready
for
> >prime time' after the 10.2 release.

> >-Larry

> Yea, but you have to buy a whole new computer to run it. If Adobe put
> MAC and PC versions of Photoshop, Pagemaker etc. on the same cdrom
> then I could warrant the switch but I invested big bucks in those
> progs and my copies only run on Windows.


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