I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them
being driven by the *masters* in a straight line...
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
--Dave
--
Dave Schwabe
The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~schwabe
>I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
>angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them
>being driven by the *masters* in a straight line...
>http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html
>--Dave
>--
>Dave Schwabe
>The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
>http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
>I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
>angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them
>being driven by the *masters* in a straight line...
>http://www.racesimcentral.net/
>--Dave
Eldred
__
Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
--dave
> I dont really think Dan would have wanted his car to be in that situation
> Dave
> >Well,
> >I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
> >angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them
> >being driven by the *masters* in a straight line...
> >http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html
> >--Dave
> >--
> >Dave Schwabe
> >The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
> >http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
--dave
> >Well,
> >I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
> >angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them
> >being driven by the *masters* in a straight line...
> >http://www.racesimcentral.net/
> >--Dave
> That looked like more of an 'oops' than a normal driving line... :)
> Eldred
> __
> Put your message in a modem, and throw it in the ***-sea...
> remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Charles Buscher
Guru_Hans
Team Guru NROS Racing sponsored by Guru *** Systems.
http://www.racesimcentral.net/***.com
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
--Dave
> Mosport that year was also incredibly WET.
> I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
> angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP. So much for them
> being driven by the *masters* in a straight line...
> http://www.allamericanracers.com/gallery/galf105.html
> --Dave
> --
> Dave Schwabe
> The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
> http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide,
trying to
catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly.
I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot,
but none
of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to
set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter
to negotiate
corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as
possible.
Cheers,
Tadej Krevh
// If you're sliding, you're out of control
> I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
> angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP.
Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something
unintended.
But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding.
It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides.
Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and
sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip
angles.
Take a look at the main menu screen when you start GPL. The one with Sir
Jack... his car is DEFINITELY sliding on the entrance to the corner. Ok,
you may call it *rotating* the car, *trail braking* or *drifting* but it
is still sliding because the tires are not stuck to the road like glue.
And there are many other pictures of racers sliding like this...
drifting the car on purpose. Go to the gallery at
http://gpl.ga-sports.com/
and you will see many cars sliding.
And, to quote one of the fastest drivers of the 60s in Trans Am and
IndyCars...
"If you're in control, you're not going fast enough," Parnelli Jones.
:-)
Cheers,
--Dave
> No offense,
> but what has got a slip angle to do with that picture ?
> Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide,
> trying to
> catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly.
> I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot,
> but none
> of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to
> set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter
> to negotiate
> corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as
> possible.
> Cheers,
> Tadej Krevh
> // If you're sliding, you're out of control
> > Well,
> > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
> > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP.
> Well, the high slip angles of the bias-ply tires are FAR greater than
> modern radials, meaning you can drive them with larger slides (more
> sideways) and still retain cornering power....
> Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something
> unintended.
> But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding.
> It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides.
> Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and
> sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip
> angles.
The proper cornering would be something like : braking, scrubbing off the
speed,
apexing and accelerating with as little sliding as possible when exiting (I
learned that
in Mexico with Brabham - 1:45.74).
Well, that is only my theory and theory of someone else too (I think it was
Doug
Arnao that was talking on this topic at the APEX HQ few months back).
I could be wrong, sorry if I am.
About the main GPL-screen - Jack is definately recovering and not cornering
properly. No-one can covnince me that is a proper cornering. When you're
sideways like that, you can't brake, you can't accelerate, you just wait the
tyres to regain the grip.
IMO, *every* opposite-lock situation makes you loose time.
Try sliding around Monaco or Mexico and see how fast you can go... :o)
Although, I admit that the track vary a lot and for instance at Zandvoort I'm
still stuck at 1:23.8x because of my theory ;o)
Cheers,
Tadej
> Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something
> unintended.
> But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding.
> It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides.
> Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and
> sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip
> angles.
> Take a look at the main menu screen when you start GPL. The one with Sir
> Jack... his car is DEFINITELY sliding on the entrance to the corner. Ok,
> you may call it *rotating* the car, *trail braking* or *drifting* but it
> is still sliding because the tires are not stuck to the road like glue.
> And there are many other pictures of racers sliding like this...
> drifting the car on purpose. Go to the gallery at
> http://gpl.ga-sports.com/
> and you will see many cars sliding.
> And, to quote one of the fastest drivers of the 60s in Trans Am and
> IndyCars...
> "If you're in control, you're not going fast enough," Parnelli Jones.
> :-)
> Cheers,
> --Dave
> > No offense,
> > but what has got a slip angle to do with that picture ?
> > Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide,
> > trying to
> > catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly.
> > I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot,
> > but none
> > of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to
> > set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter
> > to negotiate
> > corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as
> > possible.
> > Cheers,
> > Tadej Krevh
> > // If you're sliding, you're out of control
> > > Well,
> > > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
> > > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP.
> --
> Dave Schwabe
> The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
> http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
My point was simply that you could *see* the cars sliding in that era...
the slip angles of the bias-plies allowed for more dramatic angles that
in modern cars.
More proof:
http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/67/67brmspense.jpg
http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68brm-p126.jpg
http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68eagle-t1g.jpg
http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/65/65brabrm.jpg
I do, however, disagree with Jack's photo... I think he IS scrubbing off
speed on corner entry, maybe got in a little too hot. BUT... Sir Jack is
the only one that can tell us the *real* story! :-)
As for tracks, ok, I see your point on Monaco and Mexico... but Mosport,
Zandvoort, Silverstone, Kyalami... they do not punish you as readily for
sliding. Especially, like you say, Zandvoort, and Kyalami.
I agree 100% that being smooth and tidy was the fast way then, and is
the fast way now...
My whole point was simply that the cars were more visibly sliding back
then, as opposed to now... and no one can convice me otherwise. I'm a
stubborn SOB! :-)
--Dave
> Well, they were sliding through high-speed corners, but still they were trying
> to slide as little as possible (maybe just when entering the corner to scrub
> off the speed).
> Sliding at the apex, or even worst - after apex - is always bad IMO.
> The proper cornering would be something like : braking, scrubbing off the
> speed,
> apexing and accelerating with as little sliding as possible when exiting (I
> learned that
> in Mexico with Brabham - 1:45.74).
> Well, that is only my theory and theory of someone else too (I think it was
> Doug
> Arnao that was talking on this topic at the APEX HQ few months back).
> I could be wrong, sorry if I am.
> About the main GPL-screen - Jack is definately recovering and not cornering
> properly. No-one can covnince me that is a proper cornering. When you're
> sideways like that, you can't brake, you can't accelerate, you just wait the
> tyres to regain the grip.
> IMO, *every* opposite-lock situation makes you loose time.
> Try sliding around Monaco or Mexico and see how fast you can go... :o)
> Although, I admit that the track vary a lot and for instance at Zandvoort I'm
> still stuck at 1:23.8x because of my theory ;o)
> Cheers,
> Tadej
> > Well, the high slip angles of the bias-ply tires are FAR greater than
> > modern radials, meaning you can drive them with larger slides (more
> > sideways) and still retain cornering power....
> > Like you say, I think is what Dan is doing there is something
> > unintended.
> > But I disagree about sliding in the 60s. The cars were ALWAYS sliding.
> > It's just that these awesome drivers were making *controlled* slides.
> > Nothing lurid, like rallying, but you could *see* the cars drifting and
> > sliding, far, far more than today with the radials and their low slip
> > angles.
> > Take a look at the main menu screen when you start GPL. The one with Sir
> > Jack... his car is DEFINITELY sliding on the entrance to the corner. Ok,
> > you may call it *rotating* the car, *trail braking* or *drifting* but it
> > is still sliding because the tires are not stuck to the road like glue.
> > And there are many other pictures of racers sliding like this...
> > drifting the car on purpose. Go to the gallery at
> > http://gpl.ga-sports.com/
> > and you will see many cars sliding.
> > And, to quote one of the fastest drivers of the 60s in Trans Am and
> > IndyCars...
> > "If you're in control, you're not going fast enough," Parnelli Jones.
> > :-)
> > Cheers,
> > --Dave
> > > No offense,
> > > but what has got a slip angle to do with that picture ?
> > > Also, I think the driver made an error under braking and went wide,
> > > trying to
> > > catch the car from spinning rather then cornering properly.
> > > I've watched few replays from '67 races, the cars were sliding a lot,
> > > but none
> > > of them were tail happy, they had more then enough power-on oversteer to
> > > set up a nicely understeering car, or just well balanced for that matter
> > > to negotiate
> > > corners in an appropriate manner - meaning with as little sliding as
> > > possible.
> > > Cheers,
> > > Tadej Krevh
> > > // If you're sliding, you're out of control
> > > > Well,
> > > > I often said that the GPL-era cars WERE driven with a lot of slip
> > > > angle... and here's proof, from the 67 Canadian GP.
> > --
> > Dave Schwabe
> > The Aussie Toad -- Grand Prix Legends & Brabham site
> > http://users.wi.net/~schwabe
Smoothness counts, but these cars were NOT driven in the same ultra-tidy
way as their modern counterparts.
-_Dave
> On Wed, 07 Apr 1999 08:47:13 -0500,
> >Tadeh... I have no problem at all with your theory. It is sound and
> >proven.
> >My point was simply that you could *see* the cars sliding in that era...
> >the slip angles of the bias-plies allowed for more dramatic angles that
> >in modern cars.
> >More proof:
> >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/67/67brmspense.jpg
> >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68brm-p126.jpg
> >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/68/68eagle-t1g.jpg
> >http://gpl.ga-sports.com/gplimages/65/65brabrm.jpg
> I can't understand this whole thread.. :)
> Even Can-Am cars, with mega-wide, bias-ply tires would slide
> and drift, particularly in slower corners. I have personally
> seen them do it, at the time.
> These young whippersnappers have problems understanding
> the good-ole days.. :)
> --
> // rrevved posts from mindspring dot com
