rec.autos.simulators

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

Je

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Je » Fri, 24 May 1996 04:00:00

All,

Well, it had to happen. Like real racing, you don't find the limits
unless you push them and sadly, it looks like The Pits pushed them too
far.

On 13th May 1996, Jan Kohl who runs the US Mirror of The Pits,
recieved a call from Andrew Gurtis, licensing director for Daytona
Speedway and Talladega.

What follows is based on e-mail from Jan.

Jan was asked if he owned a web site called The Pits and was
asked for a mailing address.

When Jan asked why, he was told that 'they could not allow the Daytona
Patch to proceed' and they wished to send an official letter asking us
to 'cease and desist with the project'.

Jan exlpained that he was not directly involved with the project and
was just the aministrater of the US Mirror. He said that before he
release any mailing addresses, he would have to speak to me first.

I responded by writing a fairly lengthy e-mail to Andrew, explaining
the following points about the Daytona Patch.

1) The Patch is so called because is is designed to 'PATCH the whole
left by DAYTONA' in the simulator.

2) Although in the preview the track was named Daytona, this was done
to prove it could be done. The actual release version would be
released under a fictional track name.

3) The track is based on data from the Talladega track supplied with
Nascar racing. All scenery changes, apart from bitmap textures, are
taken from data, already existing in the Nascar simulation and Track
Pack. No alterations have been made to the shape of Talladega to make
it any more like Daytona.

4) The patch works by taking data from other DAT files alreading
existing on the users hard disk and compiling them into a new file.

My argument was that without using the Daytona name, using a track
layout already licensed by them for use in the game and the fact that
we make no money from it, surely can't be a breach of licensing.

Anyhow, to date I have recieved no reply from Andrew Gurtis or anyone
else at DIS.

I have forwarded a mailing address to him, via Jan, with which to
issue an official written statement of intent. Once this is recieved I
will post all relevent information to The Pits.

In the meantime, both Jan and I have decided that the Daytona Patch is
suspended until the matter is resolved. It is unlikley that it will be
released unless Daytona have a change of heart or agree that there is
no breach of licensing laws.

To fill you in, this is how far it had got.

The actual track was finished 6 weeks ago and tested by myself and
Jan. New AI was tested and all agreed that it transformed the
Talladega 'base' into something better.

I had just started to write the actual patch EXE two week ago and was
about halfway done a few weeks ago.

So there you have it. Many of you had noticed that the Daytona page
had gone from the US site and some of you though this was being done
to make way for the finished product. Sorry to disapoint you all.

However, don't lose heart. I'm still working on other things. I'm
currently experimenting with other tracks and at present I'm working
on a 'dirt oval' which has a surface the same as the grass at other
tracks and some interesting handling.

I'm also thinking of writing some Windows based editors to alter
things like Driver AI and track settings.

All in all, maybe now the Daytona project is on hold, I'll have more
time to sort ot The Pits.

Anyhow, thanks for all the support over the past few months.

Please take note of the following.

Do not e-mail me asking/begging me to send you the track. I wont and
your e-mail won't even get replied to!

Any if you want, drop Daytona  a line and let them now what you think,
but don't be rude or insultive, it won't get us anywhere.

Regards

Jed
The Pits
http://www.racesimcentral.net/
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

John J Par

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by John J Par » Fri, 24 May 1996 04:00:00


writes:
<snip>

Thanks for the update. Just one question. To write to the Daytona
people where would we write to? Do they have an internet address or do
you have their real address.

Thanks
John

Thomas Retkowsk

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Thomas Retkowsk » Fri, 24 May 1996 04:00:00


> All,

> Well, it had to happen. Like real racing, you don't find the limits
> unless you push them and sadly, it looks like The Pits pushed them too
> far.

> On 13th May 1996, Jan Kohl who runs the US Mirror of The Pits,
> recieved a call from Andrew Gurtis, licensing director for Daytona
> Speedway and Talladega.

> What follows is based on e-mail from Jan.

> Jan was asked if he owned a web site called The Pits and was
> asked for a mailing address.

> When Jan asked why, he was told that 'they could not allow the Daytona
> Patch to proceed' and they wished to send an official letter asking us
> to 'cease and desist with the project'.

> Jan exlpained that he was not directly involved with the project and
> was just the aministrater of the US Mirror. He said that before he
> release any mailing addresses, he would have to speak to me first.

> I responded by writing a fairly lengthy e-mail to Andrew, explaining
> the following points about the Daytona Patch.

> 1) The Patch is so called because is is designed to 'PATCH the whole
> left by DAYTONA' in the simulator.

> 2) Although in the preview the track was named Daytona, this was done
> to prove it could be done. The actual release version would be
> released under a fictional track name.

> 3) The track is based on data from the Talladega track supplied with
> Nascar racing. All scenery changes, apart from bitmap textures, are
> taken from data, already existing in the Nascar simulation and Track
> Pack. No alterations have been made to the shape of Talladega to make
> it any more like Daytona.

> 4) The patch works by taking data from other DAT files alreading
> existing on the users hard disk and compiling them into a new file.

> My argument was that without using the Daytona name, using a track
> layout already licensed by them for use in the game and the fact that
> we make no money from it, surely can't be a breach of licensing.

> Anyhow, to date I have recieved no reply from Andrew Gurtis or anyone
> else at DIS.

> I have forwarded a mailing address to him, via Jan, with which to
> issue an official written statement of intent. Once this is recieved I
> will post all relevent information to The Pits.

> In the meantime, both Jan and I have decided that the Daytona Patch is
> suspended until the matter is resolved. It is unlikley that it will be
> released unless Daytona have a change of heart or agree that there is
> no breach of licensing laws.

> To fill you in, this is how far it had got.

> The actual track was finished 6 weeks ago and tested by myself and
> Jan. New AI was tested and all agreed that it transformed the
> Talladega 'base' into something better.

> I had just started to write the actual patch EXE two week ago and was
> about halfway done a few weeks ago.

> So there you have it. Many of you had noticed that the Daytona page
> had gone from the US site and some of you though this was being done
> to make way for the finished product. Sorry to disapoint you all.

> However, don't lose heart. I'm still working on other things. I'm
> currently experimenting with other tracks and at present I'm working
> on a 'dirt oval' which has a surface the same as the grass at other
> tracks and some interesting handling.

> I'm also thinking of writing some Windows based editors to alter
> things like Driver AI and track settings.

> All in all, maybe now the Daytona project is on hold, I'll have more
> time to sort ot The Pits.

> Anyhow, thanks for all the support over the past few months.

> Please take note of the following.

> Do not e-mail me asking/begging me to send you the track. I wont and
> your e-mail won't even get replied to!

> Any if you want, drop Daytona  a line and let them now what you think,
> but don't be rude or insultive, it won't get us anywhere.

> Regards

> Jed
> The Pits
> http://www.ukps.com/thepits
> http://www.arc.net/users/jkohl/thepits/index.html

This IS NOT A BREACH of licensing...if you don't use the name "Daytona"
there is not a breach.

If you doubt this, check licensing law and patent law.  Call it the
"Florida International Raceway"  As you said you are using their
product, and only people that own the product already can use it.

If you have any questions please write back to me.

Thomas Retkowsk

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Thomas Retkowsk » Fri, 24 May 1996 04:00:00


> All,

> Well, it had to happen. Like real racing, you don't find the limits
> unless you push them and sadly, it looks like The Pits pushed them too
> far.

> On 13th May 1996, Jan Kohl who runs the US Mirror of The Pits,
> recieved a call from Andrew Gurtis, licensing director for Daytona
> Speedway and Talladega.

> What follows is based on e-mail from Jan.

> Jan was asked if he owned a web site called The Pits and was
> asked for a mailing address.

> When Jan asked why, he was told that 'they could not allow the Daytona
> Patch to proceed' and they wished to send an official letter asking us
> to 'cease and desist with the project'.

> Jan exlpained that he was not directly involved with the project and
> was just the aministrater of the US Mirror. He said that before he
> release any mailing addresses, he would have to speak to me first.

> I responded by writing a fairly lengthy e-mail to Andrew, explaining
> the following points about the Daytona Patch.

> 1) The Patch is so called because is is designed to 'PATCH the whole
> left by DAYTONA' in the simulator.

> 2) Although in the preview the track was named Daytona, this was done
> to prove it could be done. The actual release version would be
> released under a fictional track name.

> 3) The track is based on data from the Talladega track supplied with
> Nascar racing. All scenery changes, apart from bitmap textures, are
> taken from data, already existing in the Nascar simulation and Track
> Pack. No alterations have been made to the shape of Talladega to make
> it any more like Daytona.

> 4) The patch works by taking data from other DAT files alreading
> existing on the users hard disk and compiling them into a new file.

> My argument was that without using the Daytona name, using a track
> layout already licensed by them for use in the game and the fact that
> we make no money from it, surely can't be a breach of licensing.

> Anyhow, to date I have recieved no reply from Andrew Gurtis or anyone
> else at DIS.

> I have forwarded a mailing address to him, via Jan, with which to
> issue an official written statement of intent. Once this is recieved I
> will post all relevent information to The Pits.

> In the meantime, both Jan and I have decided that the Daytona Patch is
> suspended until the matter is resolved. It is unlikley that it will be
> released unless Daytona have a change of heart or agree that there is
> no breach of licensing laws.

> To fill you in, this is how far it had got.

> The actual track was finished 6 weeks ago and tested by myself and
> Jan. New AI was tested and all agreed that it transformed the
> Talladega 'base' into something better.

> I had just started to write the actual patch EXE two week ago and was
> about halfway done a few weeks ago.

> So there you have it. Many of you had noticed that the Daytona page
> had gone from the US site and some of you though this was being done
> to make way for the finished product. Sorry to disapoint you all.

> However, don't lose heart. I'm still working on other things. I'm
> currently experimenting with other tracks and at present I'm working
> on a 'dirt oval' which has a surface the same as the grass at other
> tracks and some interesting handling.

> I'm also thinking of writing some Windows based editors to alter
> things like Driver AI and track settings.

> All in all, maybe now the Daytona project is on hold, I'll have more
> time to sort ot The Pits.

> Anyhow, thanks for all the support over the past few months.

> Please take note of the following.

> Do not e-mail me asking/begging me to send you the track. I wont and
> your e-mail won't even get replied to!

> Any if you want, drop Daytona  a line and let them now what you think,
> but don't be rude or insultive, it won't get us anywhere.

> Regards

> Jed
> The Pits
> http://www.ukps.com/thepits
> http://www.arc.net/users/jkohl/thepits/index.html

This IS NOT A BREACH of licensing...if you don't use the name "Daytona"
there is not a breach.

If you doubt this, check licensing law and patent law.  Call it the
"Florida International Raceway"  As you said you are using their
product, and only people that own the product already can use it.

If you have any questions please write back to me.

Andy

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Andy » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00


>Well, it had to happen. Like real racing, you don't find the limits
>unless you push them and sadly, it looks like The Pits pushed them too
>far.

Well this is yet another blow to the Nascar Sim. Racing community
first it was The fine folks at NASSCAR, now you guys are getting it.
Sorry but I don't see how anyone was getting hurt by others using a
name or changing a track. I doubt ANYONE mistook (is that a word?)
NASSCAR as Bill Frances Empire. And I doubt Daytona lost any ticket
sales or sega woulda been affected by this track. Just goes to show
what commercialism is doing to us and apparently what the highly paid
pencil pushers do all day. The past few weeks actions taken by NASCAR
both in the Real world as we as *** Space have seriously tarnished
their image in my eyes.

But yet they gonna sanction multi-player so it gets people involved
only to fill the Stands on Sunday.

And then there is Jed and the others who try to give us all a little
extra, All their time and effort wasted in the name of the all mighty
dollar. It's truly pathetic.

If I had my way about it concerning Daytona, I'd rename it and if
nothing else release a patch to convert the Look and Feel of
it. Hell if it comes down to that I'd gladly pass it out.

They  can't cry copyright infrigment by the location of some trees and
grandstands in a game on a given track.

Overall if we gang together and write/fax/call these folks..
Maybe someone will listen?

Thanks Jed & Crew for your effort and If ya choose to make more
alterations, e-mail me I'd gladly mass distribute anything you came up
with anytinme..... They can't sue ME for anything, Nothing from
Nothing = Nothing as they say.

Damn Mad,
Andy

Jo

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Jo » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00


>All,
>Well, it had to happen. Like real racing, you don't find the limits
>unless you push them and sadly, it looks like The Pits pushed them too
>far.

Jed,

Sorry to here they're acting like jerks.

I'm wondering, how hard would it be for you to release the AI-changes
(i.e., with no scenery or graphics changes) to Talladega as a patch?
To be honest that's the part I was most looking forward too anyway.
I'm sure many would appreciate it.

Joe

Tim Villanuev

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Tim Villanuev » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00



> >All,

> >Well, it had to happen. Like real racing, you don't find the limits
> >unless you push them and sadly, it looks like The Pits pushed them too
> >far.

> Jed,

> Sorry to here they're acting like jerks.

Not that I am siding with NASCAR or Daytona Speedway, but what they are doing
is essentially REQUIRED by law.  Trademark law says that you must ENFORCE your
trademark or you can lose it.  For example, Papyrus has to license by contract
every single trademark that appears in the game -- not because Slick50 is worried
about losing any sales or revenue from the free advertising, but because if they
allow their trademark to be used without license, they compromise it.  Eventually,
one can lose rights to their own trademark if they let it go too long or too often.

Blame the regulators who invent these by the letter laws.. companies/corporations
really have no choice but to put a stop to these harmless activities.

Tim V

Jo

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Jo » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00


>Not that I am siding with NASCAR or Daytona Speedway, but what they are doing
>is essentially REQUIRED by law.  Trademark law says that you must ENFORCE your
>trademark or you can lose it.  For example, Papyrus has to license by contract
>every single trademark that appears in the game -- not because Slick50 is worried
>about losing any sales or revenue from the free advertising, but because if they
>allow their trademark to be used without license, they compromise it.  Eventually,
>one can lose rights to their own trademark if they let it go too long or too often.
>Blame the regulators who invent these by the letter laws.. companies/corporations
>really have no choice but to put a stop to these harmless activities.

Sorry, it's still the company's fault. What's to dtop them from
granting Jed a limited-use license so he can distribute his patch?
There is no way on earth this could harm Daytona, it's image, or any
company that has a copyright on it.

So I stand by my remarks - they are acting like total jerks. Worse
yet, *lawyer* jerks (eccch!).

Joe

James Bev

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by James Bev » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00



>Not that I am siding with NASCAR or Daytona Speedway, but what they are  
doing
>is essentially REQUIRED by law.  Trademark law says that you must ENFORCE  
your
>trademark or you can lose it.  For example, Papyrus has to license by  
contract
>every single trademark that appears in the game -- not because Slick50 is  
worried
>about losing any sales or revenue from the free advertising, but because  
if they
>allow their trademark to be used without license, they compromise it.  
Eventually,
>one can lose rights to their own trademark if they let it go too long or  
too often.

>Blame the regulators who invent these by the letter laws..  

companies/corporations

Well, would it be possible for Daytona to license the likeness to The Pits  
for a trifling fee (which I'm sure we could come up with ourselves)?  Or  
is this an exclusive license which precludes Daytona licensing to anyone  
else at all?

James

--
James Bevan

NeXTMail & MIME welcome

Robert Huggi

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Robert Huggi » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00


>The actual track was finished 6 weeks ago and tested by myself and
>Jan. New AI was tested and all agreed that it transformed the
>Talladega 'base' into something better.
>I had just started to write the actual patch EXE two week ago and was
>about halfway done a few weeks ago.

I'll call your bluff.

If you can modify Taladega to make it look more like Daytona,
then you can write tools that allow Taladega to look more like
anything users might want it to look like.

Right???
--
Best Wishes!!!
Robert Huggins
Raleigh, NC

RickGent

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by RickGent » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00


I believe that Sega's license to Daytona is exclusive, world-wide.

Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Sierra On-Line, Inc.

Mhein

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Mhein » Sat, 25 May 1996 04:00:00


Okay , another point ! What if you got the permission from a track (Just
play
along!) to use just their logo and name then would it be okay? What has
Papyrus ever said about this? In the case of a 'new' track your not really
stealing your using files that
already exsist on Nascar and the track pack! Just a little more....thanks!
Mhein68


Stephen Berlinsk

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Stephen Berlinsk » Sun, 26 May 1996 04:00:00


> I believe that Sega's license to Daytona is exclusive, world-wide.

> Rick Genter
> Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
> Sierra On-Line, Inc.


Well maybe there is a way around the Daytona (TM) mess (But I'm wondering if the Daytona management is aware of
the Japanese racing magazine "Daytona" or the fact that an RC model of a car the magazine sponsers is being
sold in the States with "Daytona" plastered all over the hood - now maybe their lawyers will go after someone
else and leave us Nascar fans alone:). Anyway, the new track in Dallas is a super speedway and I'm sure that
their owners would love a little free advertising and exposure. Anyone down Dallas way got any phone numbers?
Shouldn't be a conflict with NASCAR -2 (if it's one of the included tracks) since they're going to be a bit
different than the Nascar 1.0 tracks (from what I've read). Maybe they'd give a non-commerical limited license.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Dallas track is a pretty close replica of a famous Florida track. Gerhard and
crew might have to make some changes (gee, I don't mean to be laying more work on people who have done plenty)
but we'd have another super speedway, and certain lawyers can go bother other people.

Steve

Christopher Gouch

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by Christopher Gouch » Sun, 26 May 1996 04:00:00

: >All,

: >Well, it had to happen. Like real racing, you don't find the limits
: >unless you push them and sadly, it looks like The Pits pushed them too
: >far.

: Jed,

: Sorry to here they're acting like jerks.

: I'm wondering, how hard would it be for you to release the AI-changes
: (i.e., with no scenery or graphics changes) to Talladega as a patch?
: To be honest that's the part I was most looking forward too anyway.
: I'm sure many would appreciate it.

: Joe

--- Yes, Jed, could we at least have a go at the .LP files for Talladega?
Unlike most people around the world, I personnaly find the current Talladega
a complete waste of time to drive at (single player anyway).  The AI will
never pass the player and it becomes just plain boring.  

--- Thanks for reading.  Most of us have been using Talladega for the
Daytona scheduled events anyway, so just more enhanced AI would be a
very nice treat.

--
Christopher Goucher            


John Simmo

DAYTONA - ITS NEVER GOING TO BE! :-(

by John Simmo » Mon, 27 May 1996 04:00:00


 >
 >>Sorry, it's still the company's fault. What's to dtop them from
 >>granting Jed a limited-use license so he can distribute his patch?
 >>There is no way on earth this could harm Daytona, it's image, or any
 >>company that has a copyright on it.
 >>
 >>So I stand by my remarks - they are acting like total jerks. Worse
 >>yet, *lawyer* jerks (eccch!).
 >>
 >>Joe
 >
 >Okay , another point ! What if you got the permission from a track (Just
 >play along!) to use just their logo and name then would it be okay? What has
 >Papyrus ever said about this? In the case of a 'new' track your not really
 >stealing your using files that already exsist on Nascar and the track pack!
 >Just a little more....thanks!

That wouldn't fly at all.  If you're using a logo/name, I'm sure that you'd be
required to make the track associated with the name/logo in the sim look like
and have the same handling characteristics as the real track.  C'mon guys,
this thread (about Papyrus finding a way to get licensing) is pointless.  
Sega's got the rights, Papyrus doesn't, and we're suffering for it - end of
story.

Of course, Daytona management doesn't have a legal leg to stand on if the word
"Daytona" doesn't appear in any of the files associated with the edited track
files.  They also wouldn't have a legal leg to stand on if a patch
"mysteriously" appeared from an unknown author on the internet that added the
necessary scenery changes to make the patched track files claim the name
"Daytona".  Who're they gonna prosecute? The whole friggin net popuplation?  I
don't think so.

In other words, Jed can get by it, and Daytona officals can bloat up and pose
to their hearts' content, but they're dismally short of legal recourse if
events transpire as I have described.

/===================================================\
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