ctrl-f - thanks David
-pw
>> There may be an obvious answer to this question, but so far I haven't
>> found it in the manual or in the control assignments!
>> What is the frame rate key for F12002?
>> Sorry!
>> -pw
> thats with most detail off, but as we know about f12002, unless your
getting
> upwards of 50fps, its unplayable compared to 70-90 or at best
150fps...
> Hit a curb at 30fps, then hit the same one at 90fps....the car hardly
moves
> at 90, flies into the sky at 30, stupid physics lag....
> A good aim is to be sure your game is running near properly is above
70....
> Above a 100 i'd think its starting to work in a sweet zone....and
driving is
> a damn sight easier at higher FPS due to lack of physics delay....
> > I'm running it with a 900 mhz PC. Frame rates depend on whether
your
> > new card causes you to go nuts with the detail level or not. IIRC I
am
> > typically getting barely 20 fps on the starting grid, mid 20's in
the
> > pits, and 30's to 40's while racing. I am running at 1024x768x16
with
> > most details turned up to the max recommended (i.e. not in the red)
and
> > Quincuncx FSAA (30.82 drivers). A little bit of playing with detail
> > level or perhaps turning off FSAA would speed it up a bit, but I
don't
> > care. It's quite playable, except at the start, but more
importantly
> > (to me) it is near photo-realistic at times and I find that that,
> > combined with the full rate physics and excellent sound and force
> > feedback, gives me more of a feeling of immersion than any other
game.
> > Besides, the frame rate comes back up quickly as the other cards
> > disappear around the next bend. ;o)
> > > Is anyone out there running the GF4 4200 on a 800 mhz P3? If so
what
> > > framerates are you getting in F1 2002??? Just curious...my card
should
> > be
> > > arriving soon..
> > > --
> > > Dale Floyd,
> > > Floyd Racing #38 - #83
Im at 124FSB and my Geforce is overclocked by 25mhz or so, my machine always
beena rocket, built from good bits you see, no startup items bar sound
control etc.....
I get better FPS at 1240x1024 than 640x480, the games puzzling!!!....
> > I get 60-90fps with no AI on my own, on a GF2 and 868 P3....
> > thats with most detail off, but as we know about f12002, unless your
> getting
> > upwards of 50fps, its unplayable compared to 70-90 or at best
> 150fps...
> > Hit a curb at 30fps, then hit the same one at 90fps....the car hardly
> moves
> > at 90, flies into the sky at 30, stupid physics lag....
> > A good aim is to be sure your game is running near properly is above
> 70....
> > Above a 100 i'd think its starting to work in a sweet zone....and
> driving is
> > a damn sight easier at higher FPS due to lack of physics delay....
> > > I'm running it with a 900 mhz PC. Frame rates depend on whether
> your
> > > new card causes you to go nuts with the detail level or not. IIRC I
> am
> > > typically getting barely 20 fps on the starting grid, mid 20's in
> the
> > > pits, and 30's to 40's while racing. I am running at 1024x768x16
> with
> > > most details turned up to the max recommended (i.e. not in the red)
> and
> > > Quincuncx FSAA (30.82 drivers). A little bit of playing with detail
> > > level or perhaps turning off FSAA would speed it up a bit, but I
> don't
> > > care. It's quite playable, except at the start, but more
> importantly
> > > (to me) it is near photo-realistic at times and I find that that,
> > > combined with the full rate physics and excellent sound and force
> > > feedback, gives me more of a feeling of immersion than any other
> game.
> > > Besides, the frame rate comes back up quickly as the other cards
> > > disappear around the next bend. ;o)
> > > > Is anyone out there running the GF4 4200 on a 800 mhz P3? If so
> what
> > > > framerates are you getting in F1 2002??? Just curious...my card
> should
> > > be
> > > > arriving soon..
> > > > --
> > > > Dale Floyd,
> > > > Floyd Racing #38 - #83
and agree with anything and everything I say, as THEY PLAY THE GAME alot,
and weve had this debate a million times and FPS dicates the whole manner in
which the sim runs, maybe this is just over your head....
just like GPL its not on song till the meter is pegged at 36fps and CPU
occupancy at 50%...try F12002 at 10fps and itll be about 200% CPU occ, ie
huge lag in the system try it at 50% CPU occ itll be a new sim...
EVPhelps is also the original theorist on CPU occupancy and FPS being
directly related to each other in a physics model as FPS is a good sign of
how well the model is running, you forget these are directly connected.
As for 10FPS and 100 the same your talking complete bolox! :)
You still don't get it do you? The physics engines on most sims update at a
certain fequency eg 200hz ttahts 200 times per secong, this does not change!
You cannot have 200% cpu occupancy (you've been playing GP games haven't
you?) Unless you limit the frame rate you'll be getting 100% cpu usage most
of the time (except when stationary) as the pc tries to bang out as many pfs
as possible. GPL limits itself to as sensible 36fps which means if you have
decent PC the cpu will not be maxed out so it will have spare cpu cycles to
respond quicker. The same result can be effected by switching on vsync. Ask
any FPS player and they'll tell you they get better control response with
vsync on, what the point of rendering frames you can't see anyway? For
instance my monitor does 85hz at 1280x1024 so it utterly pointless running
100+ fps.
Basically for best playability you need to have vsync on and have a few
spare cpu cycles and not run as fast as possible.
I hope you'll understand this better now.
Some Call Me Tim
are you aware of the fact F12002 uses polygonal physics unlike GPL? this is
why its so effected by CPU occupancy and frame rate cycles, as the physics
operate on a polygon system related to the GFX side of the model, unlike
papysims. The track structure is made of polyies not longitudinal lines this
is a completely different type of physics model where if your having FPS
troubles the track curbs etc are made of polyies, and as you hit them with
low FPS, you get a totally different reaction to the system used in papy
sims as your reacting to polyies in the GFX system not set of fixed and
linear line structures. Remember F12001? how you got mad effects hitting
bumps and curbs at odd angles, this is due to the inferiorities in the
polygon system. All that happens in a 100FPS machine over a 10FPS machine is
you get a realtime reaction to the polyies your hitting and at 10FPS theres
a much stronger reaction to bumps and curbs because of the use of this type
of polygon model not a lateral and longitudinal line system used in papy
sims or in future projects like racing legends.
As I've said before F12002 is totally frame rate dependant, but this is due
to the way its been programmed, poorly....using a polygon GFX related
physics system is a bizarre idea, and unless your getting the game hammering
on 150FPS theres always room for improvements in feel....
therefor FPS is tied in the physics model regardless of the cycles and htz
its working at...
I suggest you actually try out my thoeries before waffling more!...
You live in Worcester i'm only 15miles away, you wanna try F12002 at 10FPS
on my machine then at 90FPS? be a good way to end this argument, I hope
someone else who knows there arse from there elbow will come in aid me in
explaining this to you, maybe its just the fact you havent even played
F12002??? cause if you had youd know exactly what im talking about...
> > come to VROc and speak to anyone who plays F12002, try Marc Royal
> > (darkgreen) or Kevin Firlien, im sure they will explain my throery to
you
> > perfectly if your still in doubt...
> > and agree with anything and everything I say, as THEY PLAY THE GAME
alot,
> > and weve had this debate a million times and FPS dicates the whole
manner
> in
> > which the sim runs, maybe this is just over your head....
> > just like GPL its not on song till the meter is pegged at 36fps and CPU
> > occupancy at 50%...try F12002 at 10fps and itll be about 200% CPU occ,
ie
> > huge lag in the system try it at 50% CPU occ itll be a new sim...
> You still don't get it do you? The physics engines on most sims update at
a
> certain fequency eg 200hz ttahts 200 times per secong, this does not
change!
> You cannot have 200% cpu occupancy (you've been playing GP games haven't
> you?) Unless you limit the frame rate you'll be getting 100% cpu usage
most
> of the time (except when stationary) as the pc tries to bang out as many
pfs
> as possible. GPL limits itself to as sensible 36fps which means if you
have
> decent PC the cpu will not be maxed out so it will have spare cpu cycles
to
> respond quicker. The same result can be effected by switching on vsync.
Ask
> any FPS player and they'll tell you they get better control response with
> vsync on, what the point of rendering frames you can't see anyway? For
> instance my monitor does 85hz at 1280x1024 so it utterly pointless running
> 100+ fps.
> Basically for best playability you need to have vsync on and have a few
> spare cpu cycles and not run as fast as possible.
> I hope you'll understand this better now.
> Some Call Me Tim
Some Call Me Tim
Any drivers Ive played GPL against can tell you the same story, maybe you
dont have any feel, to me I feel the game improving in response and the
models agility increasing with every FPS. Just as In GPL I feel that
improving and becoming more responsive and sharp (the point is that if the
model is running well within the CPU's power, the reactions of your inputs
in the gameport arent becoming lagged slighty by high CPU load, each time
i've upgrade my CPU in GPL I've felt a maked change in the timing and speed
at which my reactions are transfered in the game). To a person at the very
top of the time sheets this feeling is very pronouced both in GPL and
F12002, but F12002s has a direct link to FPS, as FPS seem to give an overall
impression that the higher they are the faster the whole package is working,
and so the sharper and more quickily the seem reacts to your input. With a
slow PC its like you have a slighty delay as you input a movement, then a
slight delay after before it reacts onthe track. This then means the sim is
no longer in 100% realtime if you like, theres a slight ammount of lag in
the system and model this is scaleable from the fastest PC available to the
slowest that will run it. With a PC of 2100mhz and a GF4 Ti4600 where you
get 150FPS no effort, this means the whole model, your CPU, your gameport
are working in lag free harmony and the results on the feel are scaleable
from 20FPS all the way up the roof at 150FPS, and through that range it just
gets better, and its at its perfect state on a machine where its running
150FPS full detail full everything and still not straining the PC, the model
can then 100% as a whole package.
Its the same for GPL and F12002 in that respect of system speed, but in GPL
the visual aspect stays the same but the feel of the model gets sharper with
more CPU, GPL is feeling at its best on a 1000mhz machine. Ive tried 233
awful lag in the controls and model, 564 better but still not quite realtime
as such, a tiny annoying delay, 868 just about spot on, much improved
agility and reactions from the model, making the driving sharper and the
model behave better as everything is 100% in sync. This is nothing to do
with graphics or FPS as its fixed, but the model being allowed to work
freely, here its the same in F12002 but you have unlimited FPS, so not only
with a faster machine do you get the improvement as with all software as its
allowed to run freely and not be restrained by CPU power in any way. The
base unit for GPL feeling at its peak is a 1000ghz machine with a GF3. In
F12002 the top machine appears to be a XP2100 and GF4 card. All Im saying
tim is things feel different until the model can run free, anything under
150FPS is straining the system of reactions that can improve the model to a
state of perfect realtime.
But F12002 has an added problem because of the poly system. Because the way
F12002's tracks are created your driving on polyies so the better the model
is running the faster and more accurate the reacts to each poly, without the
delays I talk about above due to the sim being strained by the system and
not running 100% shown by it reading 150FPS.
Its a feeling happens in all sims connected to system speed and the way the
model can run, just becuase of the different makeup of EA ISI model compared
to Papy, it seems alot more effected by the speed of your system.
Anyway I give up, if you can see/tell the difference this is pointless! its
painly fecking obvious both in visual aspect and a feel gained from the
model improving with FPS as FPS is an indicator in nascar 4, 2000 and F1
2002 of how well your machine is dealing with the information from both
model and graphics regardless of how many htz the model is running at.
The final word is that the faster it runs and the more FPS you get the
better it feels, which is painly obvious to any mug.
Some Call Me Tim
I always assumed this was due to a heavier fuel load, so I tried
running a few race laps with my qualifying setup and it does the same
thing.
Jason
On Sat, 31 Aug 2002 00:26:14 +0100, "David Powell"
>Any drivers Ive played GPL against can tell you the same story, maybe you
>dont have any feel, to me I feel the game improving in response and the
>models agility increasing with every FPS. Just as In GPL I feel that
>improving and becoming more responsive and sharp (the point is that if the
>model is running well within the CPU's power, the reactions of your inputs
>in the gameport arent becoming lagged slighty by high CPU load, each time
>i've upgrade my CPU in GPL I've felt a maked change in the timing and speed
>at which my reactions are transfered in the game). To a person at the very
>top of the time sheets this feeling is very pronouced both in GPL and
>F12002, but F12002s has a direct link to FPS, as FPS seem to give an overall
>impression that the higher they are the faster the whole package is working,
>and so the sharper and more quickily the seem reacts to your input. With a
>slow PC its like you have a slighty delay as you input a movement, then a
>slight delay after before it reacts onthe track. This then means the sim is
>no longer in 100% realtime if you like, theres a slight ammount of lag in
>the system and model this is scaleable from the fastest PC available to the
>slowest that will run it. With a PC of 2100mhz and a GF4 Ti4600 where you
>get 150FPS no effort, this means the whole model, your CPU, your gameport
>are working in lag free harmony and the results on the feel are scaleable
>from 20FPS all the way up the roof at 150FPS, and through that range it just
>gets better, and its at its perfect state on a machine where its running
>150FPS full detail full everything and still not straining the PC, the model
>can then 100% as a whole package.
>Its the same for GPL and F12002 in that respect of system speed, but in GPL
>the visual aspect stays the same but the feel of the model gets sharper with
>more CPU, GPL is feeling at its best on a 1000mhz machine. Ive tried 233
>awful lag in the controls and model, 564 better but still not quite realtime
>as such, a tiny annoying delay, 868 just about spot on, much improved
>agility and reactions from the model, making the driving sharper and the
>model behave better as everything is 100% in sync. This is nothing to do
>with graphics or FPS as its fixed, but the model being allowed to work
>freely, here its the same in F12002 but you have unlimited FPS, so not only
>with a faster machine do you get the improvement as with all software as its
>allowed to run freely and not be restrained by CPU power in any way. The
>base unit for GPL feeling at its peak is a 1000ghz machine with a GF3. In
>F12002 the top machine appears to be a XP2100 and GF4 card. All Im saying
>tim is things feel different until the model can run free, anything under
>150FPS is straining the system of reactions that can improve the model to a
>state of perfect realtime.
>But F12002 has an added problem because of the poly system. Because the way
>F12002's tracks are created your driving on polyies so the better the model
>is running the faster and more accurate the reacts to each poly, without the
>delays I talk about above due to the sim being strained by the system and
>not running 100% shown by it reading 150FPS.
>Its a feeling happens in all sims connected to system speed and the way the
>model can run, just becuase of the different makeup of EA ISI model compared
>to Papy, it seems alot more effected by the speed of your system.
>Anyway I give up, if you can see/tell the difference this is pointless! its
>painly fecking obvious both in visual aspect and a feel gained from the
>model improving with FPS as FPS is an indicator in nascar 4, 2000 and F1
>2002 of how well your machine is dealing with the information from both
>model and graphics regardless of how many htz the model is running at.
>The final word is that the faster it runs and the more FPS you get the
>better it feels, which is painly obvious to any mug.
>> I actually a have Geforce 4400ti and can get very high frame rates if I
>> wanted and play it quite a lot. You really still don't seem to understand
>> that the number of frames projected on screen per second has no relation
>to
>> what the physics engine is calculating. As I've tried to point out the
>> phyics is calculted at a fixed numer of times per second as this does not
>> change!!! This figure is altered in the .plr file "Half Rate="0" // 0 =
>> super-high physics rate, 1 = normal"
>> What you are getting confused with is the apperance of what is going on
>not
>> the physics calculating that movement. The only differnce you're seeing is
>> that the movement looks smoother rather than jerky. You should stop mixing
>> up physics calcualtions and the apperance of movement. True the visual
>> rection is going to be quicker at 150 than 50 but your're not going to
>> actually see it because your monitor might only be displaying 85 or 100 of
>> those. Why don't you try switching vsync on to limit the frame rate to say
>> 85hz, this will give you all the smooth movement and if your system could
>> display even more frames than that there will be spare cpu cyles going
>which
>> will mean the controls should react quicker.
>> Some Call Me Tim
its just curbs and bumps....maybe they will use a linear model for tracks in
future editions.....
> I always assumed this was due to a heavier fuel load, so I tried
> running a few race laps with my qualifying setup and it does the same
> thing.
> Jason
> On Sat, 31 Aug 2002 00:26:14 +0100, "David Powell"
> >As a top sim driver I along with the others can feel the difference to
the
> >car handling with every 5-10fps extra in F12002. There is a marked link,
end
> >of story. This has been commented on more times than I can remember since
> >people started commenting on the difference FPS makes to the way the car
> >handles bumps and curbs, there a very defined difference to a copy
running
> >at 20fps and a copy running at 100fps, its nothing to do with human eyes,
> >looks, v-sync, or the Half/Full rate physics (turned that on to Full
before
> >I even played it) its a direct connection between the way the car handles
> >and the way reacts and feels, at different FPS.
> >Any drivers Ive played GPL against can tell you the same story, maybe you
> >dont have any feel, to me I feel the game improving in response and the
> >models agility increasing with every FPS. Just as In GPL I feel that
> >improving and becoming more responsive and sharp (the point is that if
the
> >model is running well within the CPU's power, the reactions of your
inputs
> >in the gameport arent becoming lagged slighty by high CPU load, each time
> >i've upgrade my CPU in GPL I've felt a maked change in the timing and
speed
> >at which my reactions are transfered in the game). To a person at the
very
> >top of the time sheets this feeling is very pronouced both in GPL and
> >F12002, but F12002s has a direct link to FPS, as FPS seem to give an
overall
> >impression that the higher they are the faster the whole package is
working,
> >and so the sharper and more quickily the seem reacts to your input. With
a
> >slow PC its like you have a slighty delay as you input a movement, then a
> >slight delay after before it reacts onthe track. This then means the sim
is
> >no longer in 100% realtime if you like, theres a slight ammount of lag in
> >the system and model this is scaleable from the fastest PC available to
the
> >slowest that will run it. With a PC of 2100mhz and a GF4 Ti4600 where you
> >get 150FPS no effort, this means the whole model, your CPU, your gameport
> >are working in lag free harmony and the results on the feel are scaleable
> >from 20FPS all the way up the roof at 150FPS, and through that range it
just
> >gets better, and its at its perfect state on a machine where its running
> >150FPS full detail full everything and still not straining the PC, the
model
> >can then 100% as a whole package.
> >Its the same for GPL and F12002 in that respect of system speed, but in
GPL
> >the visual aspect stays the same but the feel of the model gets sharper
with
> >more CPU, GPL is feeling at its best on a 1000mhz machine. Ive tried 233
> >awful lag in the controls and model, 564 better but still not quite
realtime
> >as such, a tiny annoying delay, 868 just about spot on, much improved
> >agility and reactions from the model, making the driving sharper and the
> >model behave better as everything is 100% in sync. This is nothing to do
> >with graphics or FPS as its fixed, but the model being allowed to work
> >freely, here its the same in F12002 but you have unlimited FPS, so not
only
> >with a faster machine do you get the improvement as with all software as
its
> >allowed to run freely and not be restrained by CPU power in any way. The
> >base unit for GPL feeling at its peak is a 1000ghz machine with a GF3. In
> >F12002 the top machine appears to be a XP2100 and GF4 card. All Im saying
> >tim is things feel different until the model can run free, anything under
> >150FPS is straining the system of reactions that can improve the model to
a
> >state of perfect realtime.
> >But F12002 has an added problem because of the poly system. Because the
way
> >F12002's tracks are created your driving on polyies so the better the
model
> >is running the faster and more accurate the reacts to each poly, without
the
> >delays I talk about above due to the sim being strained by the system and
> >not running 100% shown by it reading 150FPS.
> >Its a feeling happens in all sims connected to system speed and the way
the
> >model can run, just becuase of the different makeup of EA ISI model
compared
> >to Papy, it seems alot more effected by the speed of your system.
> >Anyway I give up, if you can see/tell the difference this is pointless!
its
> >painly fecking obvious both in visual aspect and a feel gained from the
> >model improving with FPS as FPS is an indicator in nascar 4, 2000 and F1
> >2002 of how well your machine is dealing with the information from both
> >model and graphics regardless of how many htz the model is running at.
> >The final word is that the faster it runs and the more FPS you get the
> >better it feels, which is painly obvious to any mug.
> >> I actually a have Geforce 4400ti and can get very high frame rates if I
> >> wanted and play it quite a lot. You really still don't seem to
understand
> >> that the number of frames projected on screen per second has no
relation
> >to
> >> what the physics engine is calculating. As I've tried to point out the
> >> phyics is calculted at a fixed numer of times per second as this does
not
> >> change!!! This figure is altered in the .plr file "Half Rate="0" // 0 =
> >> super-high physics rate, 1 = normal"
> >> What you are getting confused with is the apperance of what is going on
> >not
> >> the physics calculating that movement. The only differnce you're seeing
is
> >> that the movement looks smoother rather than jerky. You should stop
mixing
> >> up physics calcualtions and the apperance of movement. True the visual
> >> rection is going to be quicker at 150 than 50 but your're not going to
> >> actually see it because your monitor might only be displaying 85 or 100
of
> >> those. Why don't you try switching vsync on to limit the frame rate to
say
> >> 85hz, this will give you all the smooth movement and if your system
could
> >> display even more frames than that there will be spare cpu cyles going
> >which
> >> will mean the controls should react quicker.
> >> Some Call Me Tim
> -----
> GPLRank 24.50
> N2002Rank -12.995
