rec.autos.simulators

**To Restart Or Not**

This is my opinion.....based on experience running online for a few years.

*League Races:  It is never appropriate to restart any race where league
championship points are involved.  If a league driver is consistent at
causing "yellows" during starts (or very early in the race)....then do what
NASCAR would do under the same conditions = "park" the driver until he can
learn some car control or patience...what ever his/her problem is.

*Single Race - Among friends:  I think this is a reasonable description of
the RASCAR racing going on the last few weeks.  I have a group of guys I run
this type of races with on Monday nights.  We have a standing rule:  If a
yellow comes out in the first few laps of the race...its an automatic
restart.  Everyone knows this, agrees to it in advance.  After all, we are
interested in racing each other....not "beating each other".....and you
can't race somebody who is out of the race.  We usually run 25% races....two
or three a night, with the occasional "sprint" race thrown in for fun and
grins.  We don't restart the sprint races...no matter what.  We discovered
there was a side benefit to this "automatic restart" rule!  That is...nobody
wants to be the object of all the chiding and kidding...for causing a yellow
on the first lap (or two or three laps)...so we all take extra
precaution....!  These days, we rarely have yellows early in the race.  And,
that wasn't the case before we adopted this "restart rule"....so it has to
be because of the rule!

Maybe this will be helpful?

I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like Eldred.....to
kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows.  If a drivers is
consistently causing yellows (any time during the race)....you have to ask
that driver....in a friendly way.... to discontinue running in the RASCAR
races until they have a little more racing experience.  That only makes
sense, IMHO.

Another "sensitive issue"...is requiring the entrants to the RASCAR races
understand the basic "racing rules" of NASCAR racing.  This would include
things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed limits,
pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" rule
and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow,
correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct use
of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., etc.
If you don't do these things....and be tough on violators....these RASCAR
races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races.
That would be a shame, IMHO.

To this end, it probably would make sense for someone to come up with a
"standard driver's meeting" form......much like most of the leagues
use....for these RASCAR races.  It should contain all the same info.....and
new guys can quickly see the "rules summary" and the pit/pace speeds for the
tracks being run.  The "driver's meeting" form can be filled out and posted
here each week by Eldred, or one of the other "regulars."  This also makes
sense, IHHO.  (We have one we use I can post here....after converting it to
"plain text" from "HTML"...you guys would like?)

As much as you guys are wanting to keep this RASCAR racing sort of informal
and casual....it still needs to be "organized" or it will quickly degrade to
crappy "pickup" races.  I think that may be starting to happen already,
based on some of the posts from yesterday's race?

Regards,

Tom

PS:  I also think some of the senior online drivers who are participating in
these RASCAR races need to paid more attention to, with regard to
organizational issues, casual rules and procedures.  They are experienced
online racers and they've been through all this stuff many, many times.
They know what works...and what does not work.  Also, you are racing NASCAR
style races.....this differs from GPL style races in many ways.  The
differences...and what's expected of you as a driver....needs to be clearly
made to all the guys who have been running GPL for many years, and are just
now picking up on running NASCAR 2002.  Many already know what's going
on....a few don't seem to.

I'm fine with restarts in the RASCAR races. Ed would of really been screwed
if teh race had actually tunred out to be good. I don't remember it being an
issue for anybody until yesterday though.

Sounds good, as long as it is done in a friendly way as you said.

So far it hasn't been a problem but it could in the future as more people
start joining in. Sounds like another good idea.

here....after converting it to

I'd like.

I don't think it's happening already at all, but if more drivers join in
than it could possibly happen in the future. As I said in the "RASCAR
Reminder" thread, we've only had two races out of 12 that have had any
problems. The others have been very, very clean. Just last week we did about
160 laps at Rockingham and California and only had a few yellows (two caused
by warp if I remember correctly). Yesterday (nothing new for Talladega) and
Pocono were the exceptions, not the rule.........so far. Bad news makes
headlines though, so I hope we all remember how good most of the RASCAR
racing has been.

David G Fisher

--
Mike Grandy
www.precision-racing.com

TP

Tom

"> "Appointed enforcers and blend line watchers"....those are your words,

  Your words:
(snip)
I also think it would be somewhat appropriate for someone like Eldred.....to
kind of keep some records about who is causing yellows.
(snip)
    Why? I'm fairly sure everyone else in the contest can figure out who is
causing yellows consistently. Records?  You must've meant 'mental records',
I guess. ;) To suggest someone keep track infers that the info will be used
to:
 Your words, again:

This would include
things like knowing how to start (or restart) races, pit lane speed limits,
pace speed limits (for the track you are running), what the "official" rule
and "unofficial" rules are about racing back to the line on a yellow,
correct procedure for entering, traversing and exiting pit road, correct use
of blend lines, prohibition of "chatting" during the race .......etc., etc.
If you don't do these things....AND BE TOUGH ON VIOLATORS (sic)....these
RASCAR
races will degrade to nothing much better than Sierra.com pickup races.
That would be a shame, IMHO.
(snip)
  Who exactly is it that will 'get tough'? The guy "no one else is
suggesting" ? LOL! Unless you meant "else" as everyone but yourself!
 ( You're killing me , man. This is too funny) <G>
I agree with the rest of your
    Why not? Did it the other night in prep for a lan. Works. But then I'm
not opposed to having it posted in advance either. It aint Rocket Science,
just a fun race. Besides racing back on yellows and entering/pitting, what
else is there to decide that aint a feature of the sim or a function of the
person who sets up the server?
You appear to be a bit obsessed with order. Relax, Pabst, chill a bit and
have some fun.
Gavel

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
the....." - Ash

btgoss

is saying.."Don't merge
respectful of the other
better than sierra.com if the

"Don't touch that please, your primitive intellect wouldn't understand
alloys and compositions and,......things with molecular structures,....and
the....." - Ash

Not.  I understand your point of view, but I'm not going to start a habit of
giving 'Mulligans' for a screwed up start.  Besides, I'm not always in the
race, and there might not be anyone in the field with the boss password.  Also,
someone who was involved in a lap 1 crash might be more likely to throw the red
flag than someone who WASN'T involved.  It's human nature.

If I have time to check the replays, there may be a few people getting that
e-mail...

Most of those only***the driver commiting the foul.  I guarantee the people
who've gotten black flags will try like HELL not to let that happen again...<g>
I *would* like to eliminate the frivilous chatting, though.

I'd be interested in seeing your summary.

Only at certain tracks.  I'm proud to say that 90% of the races have been
well-fought, and fairly 'clean'.  The next race at Daytona or Talladega may be
a full-lentgh race.  That may put drivers on better behavior

Eldred
--
Homepage - http://www.racesimcentral.net/~epickett
A friend of mine is involved in a fund-raiser walk-a-thon for research to cure
*** cancer.  If you can, please go to my homepage and see how to make a
donation.  Thank you.

Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.

I'd vote against restarts, and also against official rules.

I would suggest that we keep seeing these events as open, casual fun events.
I have no worries that they could become as chaotic as some of the
Sierra.com races, simply based on the personality of the drivers I've seen
on the track so far, and because of group pressure. Nobody here races
incognito. We know each other, we are a regular group, and that increases
the motivation for performing well not only in the sense of being fast, but
also of behaving according to the generally accepted behavioural patterns
within this group.

If we think we need official statements, I'd suggest creating a 'Common
Sense Statement' as the basis of our races. This 'Common Sense Statement'
could say something to the effect of:

'A race isn't won on lap 1, and in order to win the race, you have to finish
it in one piece. Adjust your driving and behaviour on the track accordingly,
and be aware of the fact that you're not the only one who wants to win this
race. Show the others drivers the same respect, fairness and sportsmanship
that you expect from them. And don't flatter yourself for aggressiveness or
cutthroat moves - both are immature and silly, and have no place in racing.
Flatter yourself for clean driving, for not crashing, for intelligently
understanding what's going on during the race, for having a good race
strategy and tactics, for avoiding accidents you might have been pulled into
by others, and for having maintained sportsmanship and fairness even when
things got heated up. You're only going to have fun in these races if you
cooperate with the others. Racing is _not_ a one man show!!'

...or something to that effect. No need for anything else, not even the
jumpstart issue. We all agree on that anyway.

The reason for most all accidents is that simmers don't take the above facts
seriously enough. We drive faster than we can, faster than necessary, and
faster than a given situation permits. I think most accidents
(driving-related ones and those in one-on-one battles) come from us
overestimating our actual driving ability and racecraft. This seems to me
the most common error among simmers. 'Fighting' or 'Racing' is only if we
keep ourselves and the other cars on the track, and moving. Everything else
is just bad moves :-)

If we drive within our abilities, and simply show respect for the others,
we'll be having good clean races.

Achim

You lifted my words from a post in another string.....not exactly in the
same context as this one.  That was about the need for rules....what if any
they would include.

I want to be clear about what you are saying.  Are you suggesting that
someone who consistently causes yellows should be allowed to continue to run
in RASCAR events (or any organized racing online)?  Just because the RASCAR
races don't accumulate season points....doesn't mean the participants are
not interested in racing....not crash fests.  As of the moment, there's
probably no one running the RASCAR races that this would apply to.  Most of
the discussion about the "need for rules and guidelines" I thought was about
discussing the future when anyone regardless of experience could join the
RASCAR Saturday races.  A "ticket" to this newsgroup doesn't take much to
acquire.

Tom

I don't really care one way or the other what you guys do.  I offered this
as a suggestion......based on something I have experience with working to
help reduce wrecks on starts.  I thought that was what the point of all
these "rules" posts was.....reducing wrecks and mistakes made by guys who
didn't follow the basic guidelines of online racing.

Geesh.

TP