Okay, I can live with that. Keep up the good work Ed, at least your a
company figure willing to converse with us.
Thanx
Joseph
Hey, will that patch mean I must exclusively run ICR2 in win95 mode? From
what I've heard I'll need more RAM just to run it in win95. True?
Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch
& I'd just like to clarify things.
I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this but here it is
anyway... I will do my best to let you know what I know about ICR 2.
However, I am not directly involved with that project & I don't know
everything that is going on over there. Frankly, I typically know as
much about ICR 2 development as I do about the development of any
other Sierra product.
I'm perfectly willing to sit up here & take the heat, but please try
not to shoot the messenger too much. I am the Producer for the NASCAR
Racing League, and yes, I am here at Papyrus. That doesn't make me
the P/R department.
Is ICR 2 a Papyrus product? Yes. Is it being developed in the same
place where I am? Yes. Do I have access to more info about it than
most of you? Yes. Do I know everything about it? No. I am not Rick
Genter. On a day to day basis, I'm way over my eyeballs in NRL & NCR
2 stuff.
Now with that said, I'm not trying to play the corporate weenie & run
away from ICR 2. I will continue to let you know what I know.
However, I don't know as much as Rick Genter did, and I never will.
Again, please don't shoot the messenger too much.
Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of
ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS
patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am
not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am
relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download.
I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this
update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that
decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are
fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out
the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know.
Again, I'll let you know as much as I know along the way... but
remember, I don't know everything, and I am not the embodiment of
Papyrus/Sierra On-Line... I'm just 1 guy.
Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
I'd personally think no download is too big if the win95 upgrade could
be broken into 5-10MB parts. I realize you have nothing to do with
the patch but if you could just pass on to the powers that be that
your most loyal customers who ran right out and bought icr2 back
in dec95 have been led to belive all along that we would be upgraded
to a bug-free w95 version, it would be most appreciated!
thx for everything ED
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MP
Scurvydog #00 Simpson-Cowlings Motorsports
http://www.netcom.com/~svydog/scms/index.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch
> & I'd just like to clarify things.
> I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this but here it is
> anyway... I will do my best to let you know what I know about ICR 2.
> However, I am not directly involved with that project & I don't know
> everything that is going on over there. Frankly, I typically know as
> much about ICR 2 development as I do about the development of any
> other Sierra product.
> I'm perfectly willing to sit up here & take the heat, but please try
> not to shoot the messenger too much. I am the Producer for the NASCAR
> Racing League, and yes, I am here at Papyrus. That doesn't make me
> the P/R department.
> Is ICR 2 a Papyrus product? Yes. Is it being developed in the same
> place where I am? Yes. Do I have access to more info about it than
> most of you? Yes. Do I know everything about it? No. I am not Rick
> Genter. On a day to day basis, I'm way over my eyeballs in NRL & NCR
> 2 stuff.
> Now with that said, I'm not trying to play the corporate weenie & run
> away from ICR 2. I will continue to let you know what I know.
> However, I don't know as much as Rick Genter did, and I never will.
> Again, please don't shoot the messenger too much.
> Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of
> ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS
> patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am
> not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am
> relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download.
> I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this
> update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that
> decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are
> fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out
> the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know.
> Again, I'll let you know as much as I know along the way... but
> remember, I don't know everything, and I am not the embodiment of
> Papyrus/Sierra On-Line... I'm just 1 guy.
> Ed Martin
> Producer, Series Director
> NASCAR Racing League
> Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Keith Meyer
<snipage>
----Nice line----- (ed.)
Point well taken. Ed, I know you are just 1 guy at P/S O-L and I didn't try
to impugn your motives for bearing the message, only P/S O-L's motive for
sending the message. With Rick gone, you are the only real link to P/S in this
newsgroup. My message was for your company's leadership and was not meant to
be an ad hominum under any circumstances. Restraining from any untoward
Caesarean impulses I will simply say,
"I pray thee, bear my former answer back:
Bid them acheive me, and then sell my bones.
Good God! why should they mock poor fellows thus?"
W.S. [Henry V]
eric suter
<snip>
Ok, I'll try not to - & thanks for the info.
<snip>
Well, I suppose that I would rather have a tested than untested
version.....
I sincerely hope so, but I've heard this before
Why too big? Surely the tracks, etc are the same & this is the big
amount of data. My root ICR2 directory is only about 5MB (small
compared to the 9MB download of Quake <g>) and that contains some
other stuff, & not all of it would need to be replaced & it would be
zipped up, etc.
Actually, I'm not too bothered about the Win 95 version. it would be a
'nice to have' but that's all (I kept DOS 6 for ***).
Who is much appreciated for the advice & info that he gives us all.
What I would really like to have answered from Papyrus is "why wait
until the Win 95 version is out & in the shops before giving your
loyal customers the first patch?" I realise that Ed can't be expected
to answer for the bosses at Papy/Sierra, but I wish that someone would
answer this one. My own view on this is:
a) it must have been way easier to patch the DOS version than produce
the Win 95 version
b) the patch may not earn any hard cash, but it would have earned them
a lot of respect / good will
c) delaying the patch has caused a lot of bad feeling amongst Papy's
most loyal customers and could lead to rather fewer future sales than
the few extra ones that the Win 95 version will get.
d) if GP2 makes it out before the patch, you might as well delay the
patch until xmas as far as I am concerned
Well, theres my two pieces of low denomination currency. And as I said
before, thanks for the info Ed.
Richard
OK... here's the latest...
The DOS to Win 95 patch is too big for a downloadable update.
Papyrus/Sierra is working out the details, but the plan is to provide
current owners of DOS ICR II a means to get the new CD & user's guide
for essentially cost of handling. Something along the lines of "send
back your old CD & we'll send out a new one".
That's all the details I have for now. As soon as I know more, so
will you!
Ed Martin
Producer, Series Director
NASCAR Racing League
Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
Thanks Ed. I've been wondering when/if someone from Papyrus would tell
us what the story actually was, and thanks for doing so.
Cheers!
John
PS - See, I'm not all bad :)
PPS - And not a flame in sight!
_________________________________
__ _____| |_____ __
_________| |__| :| John Wallace | |__| |_________
\ :| |::| :| Team WW Racing TSW | |::| | /
> :| |::| :|_________________________________| |::| | <
/ :|__|::|____:/ Sim Racing News \.____|::|__| \
/_______:/ \::/ http://sneezy.dcn.ed.ac.uk/simnews/index.htm\::/ \._______\
: Folks, I've been taking a lot of heat up here regarding the ICR2 patch
: & I'd just like to clarify things.
: I know I'll probably get flamed for saying this but here it is
: anyway... I will do my best to let you know what I know about ICR 2.
: However, I am not directly involved with that project & I don't know
: everything that is going on over there. Frankly, I typically know as
: much about ICR 2 development as I do about the development of any
: other Sierra product.
: I'm perfectly willing to sit up here & take the heat, but please try
: not to shoot the messenger too much. I am the Producer for the NASCAR
: Racing League, and yes, I am here at Papyrus. That doesn't make me
: the P/R department.
[snip]
: Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of
: ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS
: patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am
: not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am
: relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download.
: I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this
: update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that
: decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are
: fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out
: the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know.
Don't worry Ed, no need to duck behind the bartizans... I am sorry that
you seem to be the target of our enfilade. This is not what is really
happening. You are just one of the few "real" people we know of
connected with the production company we all are devoted to. At times
it may seem that we have you in our cross-hairs, but this is not the
case.
What you hear [read] is not directed at you. It's just our way of trying
to be heard by the "faceless machinery" of Papyrus/Sierra On-Line.
Please rest assured that we DO want you to continue keeping us informed.
All we ask is that you collect the feedback you get from us and pass it
on to the decision makers. I know that most of what we ask for is
impossible and you have been kind enough to try and let us down easy
when you inform us that.
Part of our frustration is that we have been impatiently awaiting fixes
to a simulation that too many of us are too devoted to. Another part is
that many of us feel betrayed. Many of us defended ICR2, bugs 'n all,
after it's release. We told readers of r.a.s. (and our friends), don't
worry, Papryus has a GREAT track record of supporting it's customers.
Well, over the last few months there have been a few things which made
us doubt our firm belief in this customer support. We feel wounded and
at times our responses may seem to brash and spiteful. I am sorry about
that.
All we are looking for is for Papyrus to do the right thing and restore
that lost faith. In this world today, there aren't that many things,
people, and companies that we can put that much trust in. It's felt
good to be a "proxy" part of Papyrus and all they have done for us
racing fanatics.
[Sorry, I've just been informed that my time is up...]
In closing keep up the work, keep us informed, and have a brew on me...
Sincerely,
Michael E. Carver
Simuholic since Indianapolis 500 the Simulation
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
[snip]
: Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of
: ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS
: patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am
: not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am
: relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download.
: I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this
: update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that
: decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are
: fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out
: the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know.
Fair enough, though it (no snipe -- don't duck) seems that it has been
in testing at Papy for 2 weeks, then Sierra wants to test it (another 2
weeks?) Now this may be a snipe, just duck so the right person gets
smacked ;) I thought there were professional packages that compared
old program files against the updated ones and generated patches. What
you got? A couple of elves from one of those old Sierra Adventure games
piecing this thing together by hand? I thought this was some of the
things that being a part of Sierra On-Line was supposed to help with.
(You can stand back up again!)
Regarding the Win95 upgrade, originally this was to be a $10-15 upgrade
path. However, as time rolled on and we didn't receive a fix for the
DOS version it appears that Papyrus (and Sierra??), decided to "tide"
us over with the ability to upgrade for free via download/ftp/web. When
Rick mentioned that it would be HUGE, we just asked that it be broken
down in parts. He replied that they would indeed try to package it into
manageable parts.
Keep us posted, and I don't mean to make this place too hot for you to
visit. It's nothing personal....
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Flame Flame Flame Flame Flame Burn baby burn!!!!
Quit ***ing about the patch. The game sure worked fine before anybody
found out that there was going to be a patch for fixing something. When
this patch is finally downloaded and added to the game, you probably won't
notice anything different any way. Give the guy's at Sierra\Papyrus a
break. They make great games and are always helpful about answering
questions and problems. Do you think they're holding the release back just
to spite all the hot heads?? I'll put money on that.
Bill
Again, thanks for sticking with the spirit of the plan Rick laid out.
And about all the flames you'll see here- let them roll off, it will
be a couple of days before people catch up with the latest news.
: Here's what I do & don't know... 1) The patch for the DOS version of
: ICR 2 is still in testing here at Papyrus. This is the DOS to DOS
: patch. We hope to have it online by the end of the week. 2) I am
: not sure what's currently up with the DOS to Win 95 patch plans. I am
: relatively sure that it is something that is just too big to download.
: I am also aware of what Rick Genter said in the past regarding this
: update (being a freebie online). I have as much to do with that
: decision as I do with the Russian election. Papyrus & Sierra are
: fully aware of what is going on & are in the process of figuring out
: the plan. As soon as I know, I'll let you know.
: Again, I'll let you know as much as I know along the way... but
: remember, I don't know everything, and I am not the embodiment of
: Papyrus/Sierra On-Line... I'm just 1 guy.
: Ed Martin
: Producer, Series Director
: NASCAR Racing League
: Papyrus / Sierra On-Line, Inc.
I have a suggestion, errr... rather a comment. You might want to take a
look at what Activision did with their NETMECH for DOS product. This
patch was over 1 year late and was placed out on the internet as a 11MB
download for all of Mechwarrior 2 customers. Now if Activision can place
an 11MB download, I think Papyrus/Sierra should be able to place a
similar download available to all purchasers of ICR2 who do not wish to
wait in the mail for their upgrade. I'd rather spend an hour online at
28.8 and get the patch than to wait.
Ken.
I would still like to have it that way..I don't care how big it is!!
Of course break it up..!!!
Pls keep up posted..
The take over or buy out has changed the thinking at Papy..
I don't know how many of you are waiting and hoping for the Win95 patch to
be a wonderful panacea given the availability of DirectX, however, if
you're out there, I don't think you really have reason to get to anxious
about the Win95 version.
For the new Win95 version: The new Win95 shell is fantastic. The
paintshop is better and is a real Windows tool (though it must be run in
256 colors), the replay editor is now windows-based and you can go to the
END of the tape, drag a slider to any part of the tape on the fly, move
two sliders to represent the beginning and end of a section of tape you
want to save off, and you have listboxes which you can use to select
cars/camera views. Its really quite nice. Long file names are supported
throughout, so you can now save .STG files with meaningful names. The
Garage setup dialog is a dream, with everything right there on one screen
to edit, along with a comments section. The shell is great, with nice
track selection, weather, realism etc all nicely done in dialogs rather
than buried in tedious menus ala DOS. You also have more options
regarding resolution/frame rate and you can even prioritize which of the
AUTO details is turned on first and which is turned on last! All in all,
a top-notch shell..which makes the following news more distressing: I
found the Win95 version of the actual Sim to be too slow for comfort. I
have a P-133, SB AWE 32, 24 meg RAM, Diamond Stealth 64 PCI 2meg VRAM, an
ACM card and a Thrusty T2, and have tried each combination of the
following: Diamond's latest drivers, Standard Win95 drivers, S3's
drivers, DirectX on Sierra CD, latest DirectX 2.0, latest SB AWE 32
drivers from Creative Labs, and even a completely *** Win95 install,
and the bottom line is that the frame rate is uneven, is generally between
1-5 fps slower than the DOS version on the same hardware, and there seems
to be a slight delay in getting my input. Even turning ALL the details
off didn't give me a particularly smooth sim, even though the
game-reported frame rates (yes each version has a toggle to view the
current frame rate) were in the 20 fps ballpark. In particular, braking
at long straights is NOT the same. If I drive like I do in DOS, I'm into
a wall. I'm not blaming this on Sierra at all. Undoubtedly they followed
the rules and wrote to DirectDraw and DirectSound as they should, but
clearly DirectX and/or the drivers that are currently out are not up to
the demands of IndyCar, at least this is my conclusion until someone can
get me some better drivers. So the Win95 version is a very mixed bag,
with much of the great stuff done to the shell interface being lost due to
the less than stellar Win95 DirectX performance. Personally, I probably
won't do much beyond use paintshop and the standalone replay viewer in
Win95 until the Rendition version comes out and I spring for a
Rendition-based board. Either that or until Diamond/Microsoft/Creative
Labs supply me with drivers that truly fulfill the promise of DirectSound
& DirectDraw.
Anyway, to most of you out there who are enjoying the DOS version, the
fact that the DOS patch will be provided online is indeed good news, as
this is (in my humble opinion) where most of you will keep playing if my
findings about DirectX are similar on other hardware configurations. As
such, having to send in a disc and get one back along shouldn't be a
problem...you won't be missing as much as you might think.
Randy
