rec.autos.simulators

Dive bomb or not ?

Andrew Hollo

Dive bomb or not ?

by Andrew Hollo » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 03:23:59

I would say that that was outbraking someone. I would class dive bombing as
when you attempt to get alongside after the car ahead has started to turn
in, and turning in usually occurs some time after braking starts.





> > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive
> > bombing'?

> I would say that the border between a clean pass and dive bombing is that
if
> the car behind cannot get his nose under the car in front before the
braking
> for the corner, the resulting situation is dive bombing, regardless if the
> car in front notices&gives room or not.

> If the passing car can get his nose under the car in front before the
> braking and then stays as low as possible (and doesn't get up from there
> after turn-in), I would blaim the outside car if there was a crash.

> --
> Mika Takala

Steve Blankenshi

Dive bomb or not ?

by Steve Blankenshi » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 03:45:25

Yup; pretty much invented *back in the day* by Bob Hannah.  Pretty
controversial at the time, but it quickly became the norm.  Always had front
tire marks all down the sides of my bike after races from then on (often the
backs of my legs, too).  It's a cheap shot, since you don't have to actually
be faster than the guy you're "passing", you just banzai it in there and
shove him out of the way.  Whoever recovers first comes out on top - until
the next corner.

Best approach for driving sims as passee, if you see it coming, is to wait
until the last second, then go wide and brake a bit early on entry, get the
turn squared-off and get back on the gas early and go underneath the bozo
who just stuffed you on the exit, as he will have ruined his own line and
momentum.  He'll try it again, of course, and you may have no choice but the
sacrificial brake-check.  Good thing it all hurts a lot less online... ;-)


> Also called a "block pass" I believe, and used all the time in motocross.






> Trensz"

> > > >I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become
'dive
> > > >bombing'?

> > > >As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the
> inside
> > > >into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing'
by
> > > >Nascar drivers.

> > > My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a
> crash
> > if
> > > the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action.  Meaning, the
> > outside
> > > driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car is
> > making a
> > > bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact.

> > Eldred's got it; this was what we used to call "stuffing" someone in
> > motocross.  You compromise your own line and exit speed by going in too
> deep
> > and too tight for the purpose of taking track position, and the passee
> will
> > have to alter his intended line to avoid contact.

> > Effective (if risky) for getting a position, but it kills your laptimes.

> > SB

Gerry Aitke

Dive bomb or not ?

by Gerry Aitke » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 04:01:23




>>I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive
>>bombing'?

>>As a European, I'd like to learn to distinguish when a pass on the inside
>>into a corner is acceptable, and when it's considered 'dive bombing' by
>>Nascar drivers.

> My interpretation would be a last-second move that would result in a crash if
> the driver on the outside doesn't take evasive action.  Meaning, the outside
> driver is turning towards the apex, but realized the trailing car is making a
> bonzai attempt, so he turns out a bit to avoid contact.

> Eldred

That's my interpretation too.

Gerry

Mika Takal

Dive bomb or not ?

by Mika Takal » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 04:08:58



Yes, but my point is that when racing online, specially N2003 & ovals,
trying to outbrake someone into T1 or T3 is quite rude. There are too many
limitations in the visibility, lag and collision detection to do that
safely. When braking *much*, as in a hairpin or a tight corner on road
tracks.. outbraking is clearly the best option to overtake, and it can be
done safely.. but on ovals its a different world.

--
Mika Takala

Eldre

Dive bomb or not ?

by Eldre » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 04:28:01



>The trailing car is making a very small tree?

I said "bonzai", not "bonsai"...<g>

Eldred
--
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Joachim Trens

Dive bomb or not ?

by Joachim Trens » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 05:59:50

It's banzai, actually, I think ;-) perhaps related to Buckaroo Banzai? :-)

Achim


...
...

Peter Ive

Dive bomb or not ?

by Peter Ive » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:25:02



<snip>

Spot on Jason.  And I'm sure most people see it this way when racing the
NASCAR sims, even if it is only subconsciously.

As the passer: if you're not alongside on the straight then don't make
the pass into the corner.  Hold back and wait for a better opportunity.  

As the passee: if your spotter hasn't told you 'car low' by the time you
are entering the turn then you can turn in as normal.

If most drivers would stick to this simple mantra I'm sure there would
be fewer collisions.  Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in
order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough
to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner.  Patience is as
much a part of oval racing as anything.  Besides, where's the
satisfaction in just lunging for the corner desparately compared to
outdriving your opponent with a textbook move.

It's been a while since I raced on line, but when offline racing from
the back against the AI that are slower than myself I find there are 2
possible scenarios.  Either I can get stuck in straight away and look
for any small space to squeeze through by taking even the slightest
opportunity that presents itself.   I know how this ends up and its
usually in tears.  Generally, if I hold back until things settle down
after a few laps and the cars get more spread out, I can then pick my
overtaking moves with more care and can get to the front without too
much difficulty.

It doesn't take rocket science to work this stuff out.  If that's what's
happening online then it doesn't surprise me that there have been a
hatfull of yellows lately.
--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

newsma

Dive bomb or not ?

by newsma » Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:57:30

Bull S***






> <snip>

> >  Passing on an oval is all about
> >getting on the throttle early out of a turn and getting your nose just
> >inside the rear quarter panel on the following straight rather than
> >constantly trying to outbrake someone (which usually results in
> >chaos).

> Spot on Jason.  And I'm sure most people see it this way when racing the
> NASCAR sims, even if it is only subconsciously.

> As the passer: if you're not alongside on the straight then don't make
> the pass into the corner.  Hold back and wait for a better opportunity.

> As the passee: if your spotter hasn't told you 'car low' by the time you
> are entering the turn then you can turn in as normal.

> If most drivers would stick to this simple mantra I'm sure there would
> be fewer collisions.  Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in
> order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough
> to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner.  Patience is as
> much a part of oval racing as anything.  Besides, where's the
> satisfaction in just lunging for the corner desparately compared to
> outdriving your opponent with a textbook move.

> It's been a while since I raced on line, but when offline racing from
> the back against the AI that are slower than myself I find there are 2
> possible scenarios.  Either I can get stuck in straight away and look
> for any small space to squeeze through by taking even the slightest
> opportunity that presents itself.   I know how this ends up and its
> usually in tears.  Generally, if I hold back until things settle down
> after a few laps and the cars get more spread out, I can then pick my
> overtaking moves with more care and can get to the front without too
> much difficulty.

> It doesn't take rocket science to work this stuff out.  If that's what's
> happening online then it doesn't surprise me that there have been a
> hatfull of yellows lately.
> --
> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

Peter Ive

Dive bomb or not ?

by Peter Ive » Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:31:59



Would you like to expand on that a little?  Can't quite see where you
disagree there.  Or is that the best you can come up with?


>message



>> >On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:32:27 +0200, "Joachim Trensz"


>> <snip>

>> >  Passing on an oval is all about
>> >getting on the throttle early out of a turn and getting your nose just
>> >inside the rear quarter panel on the following straight rather than
>> >constantly trying to outbrake someone (which usually results in
>> >chaos).

>> Spot on Jason.  And I'm sure most people see it this way when racing the
>> NASCAR sims, even if it is only subconsciously.

>> As the passer: if you're not alongside on the straight then don't make
>> the pass into the corner.  Hold back and wait for a better opportunity.

>> As the passee: if your spotter hasn't told you 'car low' by the time you
>> are entering the turn then you can turn in as normal.

>> If most drivers would stick to this simple mantra I'm sure there would
>> be fewer collisions.  Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in
>> order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough
>> to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner.  Patience is as
>> much a part of oval racing as anything.  Besides, where's the
>> satisfaction in just lunging for the corner desparately compared to
>> outdriving your opponent with a textbook move.

>> It's been a while since I raced on line, but when offline racing from
>> the back against the AI that are slower than myself I find there are 2
>> possible scenarios.  Either I can get stuck in straight away and look
>> for any small space to squeeze through by taking even the slightest
>> opportunity that presents itself.   I know how this ends up and its
>> usually in tears.  Generally, if I hold back until things settle down
>> after a few laps and the cars get more spread out, I can then pick my
>> overtaking moves with more care and can get to the front without too
>> much difficulty.

>> It doesn't take rocket science to work this stuff out.  If that's what's
>> happening online then it doesn't surprise me that there have been a
>> hatfull of yellows lately.
>> --
>> Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
>> Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
>> If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
>> GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77

--
Peter Ives (AKA Pete Ivington)
Remove ALL_STRESS before replying via email
If you know what's good for you, don't listen to me :)
GPLRank Joystick -50.63 Wheel -21.77
Larr

Dive bomb or not ?

by Larr » Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:46:41

I don't think it can truly be defined, but I personally try to avoid going
under a car if the ouside driver has already made the obvious intention to
come down low to the line.

If the outside driver starts to come down low AFTER the inside car has made
his move, then IMHO any contact is the fault of the outside line driver.

Sometimes, it's NO one's fault.  There is, unfortunatley, a bit of lag in
NR2003 (which I believe was actually introduced in NR2002) to when the
spotter calls "Car Low".

And, sometimes the outside line driver does it on purpose to try and
intimidate the passing car into backing off.  That, IMHO, is dirty pool and
the cause of more than a few accidents out there.

And, of course, sometimes you misjudge things and just plain***up :)  It
happens to everyone.

-Larry


B.Farme

Dive bomb or not ?

by B.Farme » Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:07:05


> I don't think it can truly be defined, but I personally try to avoid going
> under a car if the ouside driver has already made the obvious intention to
> come down low to the line.

> If the outside driver starts to come down low AFTER the inside car has made
> his move, then IMHO any contact is the fault of the outside line driver.

I dunno, Larry.  The old *accepted* rule of thumb was if the overtaking
(inside) car didn't have a fender up to the door of the overtakee (outside)
car, the inside car was expected to back off & try again, later.  This seems
to have changed since the advent of spotters & in car radio, tho it also seems
to have changed about the same time as DE Sr showed up.   ;o)

This is the very reason I try to follow the old rule of thumb  ;o)

Yep

-Brian



> > I'm wondering, when does a pass on the inside into a turn become 'dive
> > bombing'?

Eldre

Dive bomb or not ?

by Eldre » Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:25:16



>Anyone who needs to late brake into a corner in
>order to pass the car in front just shows that they aren't good enough
>to overtake in the conventional and accepted manner.

That's a bit harsh, innit?

Eldred - who can't get out of the corners fast to save my LIFE... :-(
--
Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my
homepage)
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett

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Eldre

Dive bomb or not ?

by Eldre » Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:25:16


writes:

Ok, what do you disagree with?

Eldred
--
Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my
homepage)
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jason moy

Dive bomb or not ?

by jason moy » Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:15:53



>writes:

>>Bull S***

>Ok, what do you disagree with?

Shouldn't you be putting some laps in at Hockenheim instead of running
your mouth on usenet? =)

Jason <-- 280 laps since Friday and still slow

Eldre

Dive bomb or not ?

by Eldre » Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:54:36


moyer) writes:



>>writes:

>>>Bull S***

>>Ok, what do you disagree with?

>Shouldn't you be putting some laps in at Hockenheim instead of running
>your mouth on usenet? =)

>Jason <-- 280 laps since Friday and still slow

Running my mouth?  I'm not the one who said "bullshit"...<g>
Besides, it wouldn't help anyway.  I have the feeling that I could run a full
GP every day for a month, and still not be competitive...

Eldred
--
Help find missing child: Tatianna Ashley Chillcutt from Michigan(info on my
homepage)
Homepage - http://www.umich.edu/~epickett

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