rec.autos.simulators

Tsw2

Don Burnett

Tsw2

by Don Burnett » Mon, 15 Jun 1998 04:00:00

I'm curious if any owners of the TSW2 are experiencing any potentiometer
problems. My pedals are now very erratic, in both calibration and racing. I
tried using both wd40 and tuner cleaner, helped for about a week, now won't
help at all. I've only had this thing about 2 months, and already having pot
failure. I sure am glad I still have my T2 as a backup, guess I'll have to
go back to it, while I wait for the time it takes to send TSW a check for
some of their 10.00 pots,and for them to get back to me. I sure thought
these would last longer than the T2's did, heck , I think I went a year
before having to replace my T2's pots.

--
Don Burnette
I-65 Racing
Dburn on Ten
AOLL Iroc Series Administrator
http://www.racesimcentral.net/

http://www.racesimcentral.net/

Greg Cisk

Tsw2

by Greg Cisk » Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:00:00


>I'm curious if any owners of the TSW2 are experiencing any potentiometer
>problems. My pedals are now very erratic, in both calibration and racing. I
>tried using both wd40 and tuner cleaner, helped for about a week, now won't
>help at all. I've only had this thing about 2 months, and already having
pot
>failure. I sure am glad I still have my T2 as a backup, guess I'll have to
>go back to it, while I wait for the time it takes to send TSW a check for
>some of their 10.00 pots,and for them to get back to me. I sure thought

Are you joking about this? I would have thought they would send
the pots for free...

Huh... That is good to know I guess :-)

--
Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.


Trevor C Thoma

Tsw2

by Trevor C Thoma » Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:00:00



> >I'm curious if any owners of the TSW2 are experiencing any potentiometer
> >problems. My pedals are now very erratic, in both calibration and racing. I
> >tried using both wd40 and tuner cleaner, helped for about a week, now won't
> >help at all. I've only had this thing about 2 months, and already having
> pot
> >failure. I sure am glad I still have my T2 as a backup, guess I'll have to
> >go back to it, while I wait for the time it takes to send TSW a check for
> >some of their 10.00 pots,and for them to get back to me. I sure thought

> Are you joking about this? I would have thought they would send
> the pots for free...

> Huh... That is good to know I guess :-)

Greg, not sure what is meant here, we certainly dont charge for
replacement pots, never have. We do sell a premium grade pot for $10.00
each.

Trev

Don Burnett

Tsw2

by Don Burnett » Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:00:00

You send replacement pots at no charge for the TSW2?

--
Don Burnette
I-65 Racing
Dburn on Ten
AOLL Iroc Series Administrator
http://pages.southtech.net/palmetto/aoll.htm


>Greg, not sure what is meant here, we certainly dont charge for
>replacement pots, never have. We do sell a premium grade pot for $10.00
>each.

>Trev

Richard Carls

Tsw2

by Richard Carls » Tue, 16 Jun 1998 04:00:00

On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:06:51 -0500, "Don Burnette"

Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and
miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly.

BTW, I don't think WD40 is a good pot cleaner as it conducts
electricity somewhat and might be hurting more than helping.
Sticking to "TV tuner cleaner" will probably work better.

Trevor C Thoma

Tsw2

by Trevor C Thoma » Thu, 18 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> On Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:06:51 -0500, "Don Burnette"

> Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and
> miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly.

Richard,

You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that
they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the
wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail.

Some people seem to think that pot problems have some bearing on the
quality of the wheel unit, this just aint so as you well know :) we have
a lot of TSW units that have been in service for over 4 years and never
had a pot replaced, we have some that fail within a week. This is why we
offer free replacement of pots for the life of the unit.

Of course the guys who spent the price of a new car for thier wheel will
jump up and down and swear that this isnt true but anyone with any
ability to understand what a pot is and how they work knows better :)!

Trev

Trevor C Thoma

Tsw2

by Trevor C Thoma » Sat, 20 Jun 1998 04:00:00




> >You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that
> >they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the
> >wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail.

> >Some people seem to think that pot problems have some bearing on the
> >quality of the wheel unit, this just aint so as you well know :)

> There is some relation, Trev. If the wheel shaft is not properly aligned to
> the pot shaft then there will be increased pressure on the mechanical
> aspects of the pot which will result in a very much reduced lifetime.

> The fact that some of your customers have gone 4 years with the same pots
> shows how well your shaft alignment can be, but every now and then you may
> ship a wheel with slightly less then perfect alignment - or it may get
> damaged in transit - resulting in increased wear.

> Build quality does have a factor in pot wear but it does have to be said
> that this will only show up over the lifetime of several pots. Nothing
> whatsoever can be judged by the failure of a single pot!

> Cheers,
> Richard

> --
> We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions
> whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

Good point Rich :)

We made a change in the design of the TSW several years back where the
pot mount was in *** to stop alignment problems, we recently changed
to a *** pot drive which completely eliminates any possibility of
this happening.

We constantly make small changes and improvments whenever we think
something may work better, this is why the TSW/TSW2 is still the best
value per dollar spent in steering wheel/pedal units and always will be
:).

BTW I still miss Compuserve and Sportsims :(!

Trev

Goy Larse

Tsw2

by Goy Larse » Sun, 21 Jun 1998 04:00:00




> >BTW I still miss Compuserve and Sportsims :(!

> Your involvement is missed too! Any chance of coming back some time soon?

> Cheers,
> Richard

Hey, this sounds interresting, how do I get there ?

Beers and cheers
(uncle) Goy
UncleGoy on TEN

AndyCer

Tsw2

by AndyCer » Sun, 21 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> > Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and
> > miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly.

> You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that
> they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the
> wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail.
> >Trev
> Of course the guys who spent the price of a new car for thier wheel will
> jump up and down and swear that this isnt true but anyone with any
> ability to understand what a pot is and how they work knows better
>Trev

A word from ECCI about pots. No, a pot is not a pot. Anyone who really
understands what pots are and how they work knows that all
potentiometers are not created equal. There is no mystery about the
failure rate of some pots vs others in a driving system application.

A pot is a mechanical and electrical device that must abide by the laws
of physics just like everything else. Pots are available at every price
level imaginable from .50c to $450 each... yes, $450. What
differentiates them is the engineering of the internals for a given
application, the quality of their construction, and the resulting
performance. Some are designed for kids toys and some are for use in
F-16's.

Most lower priced pots are engineered for a static situation, such as a
set-once-in-a-while audio volume or tone knob application. The use of
this kind of pot in a dynamic constant-motion application such as
driving controls will result in a high failure rate. The use of cheap
general use pots from consumer electronics retailers will also result in
frequent failure, because the construction quality is just not there to
assure accuracy and long life. Internal construction variables include:
bushing material, shaft material, manufacturing tolerances, wiper
geometry, wiper material, resistor material, wear characteristics of the
resistor surface, etc. ECCI has done LOTS of homework on this topic and
uses specially modified potentiomters that are engineered to survive a
very long time with high precision in a driving control application. The
experiences of most ECCI users describing YEARS of pot life with intense
daily use are not chance or fiction.

Another major factor in pot failure is the mechanical construction
quality of the driving system itself. Side loading on the pot bushing is
a very common cause of failure. The causes are different for steering
and pedal units:

#1 is imprecise lateral alignment of the steering shaft with the pot.
ECCI uses precision machined bearing bores with sealed ball bearings for
the steering shaft. When the bore is aligned at the factory it will
never go out of alignment. The use of a flexible connection can minimize
the effect of small side displacements and is needed, even in ECCI units
for installation tolerance, but it must not be too flexible, or steering
precision will be lost.

#2 is axial displacement of the steering shaft. Movement of the steering
shaft forwards and aft will cause wiper failure in the pot. ECCI locks
the steering shaft so it cannot move axially. The ECCI bearing structure
cannot wear over time to cause axial looseness. If the steeering shaft
of a wheel moves in ond out AT ALL, you are likely to have problems.

#3 is excessive side loading of the pedal pots due to the design of the
pedal unit. ECCI pedal units are designed to eliminate torsional and
side loads on the pot shaft that cause failure here in many other units.
ECCI pedal pots last even longer than the steering pots due to the less
frequent motion.

The vast majority of ECCI owners have never had a need to change pots at
all despite heavy use. Most of the small percentage of units that have
needed a replacement were due to two specific problems, each of which
was corrected quickly: one batch of defective pots from our supplier in
early '97, and a warped connector in mid '97. When the 25 units affected
are removed from the statistics, less than five percent of ECCI units
shipped since the inception of our company in 1994 have needed
replacement pots, a record of which we are proud.

There are those out there that will try to sell you less by working hard
to convince you it is the same thing. If anyone wishes to know the
record of ECCI products, just ask ECCI owners, not those who have
something else to sell.

Andy Cers
ECCI

HTTP://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/extreme
Move up to true professional quality, move up to ECCI

joe dawso

Tsw2

by joe dawso » Mon, 22 Jun 1998 04:00:00

Blew Trevor away, didn't he. Thats why ECCI blows away TSW also. My ECCI is
2-1/2 years old and still like the day it arrived.  As a side note, I just
replaced all my pots today w/ECCI pots in my unit because after 2-1/2 years,
i could'nt believe they could go much longer and the TSW i had made me walk
after 2 months, so whether they needed it or not, i did. Cost $45.00. Well
worth it. I went a 50% at mich tonite. Flawless.

I also don't get where he says the price of a new car. I think if you add
all the options he has to bring it close to what an ECCI has standard, there
is about a $100 diff. in the price for the CDS2 and his. And you get 100
times the wheel or more probably. I think Trevor is the one who better get
on the stick and try to figure out whats going on, looks like ECCI has.

JD



>> > Replace your pots. Any pots, regardless of "quality", are a hit and
>> > miss affair, some seem to work forever, others die quickly.

>> You understand pots very well :) we have been trying to explain that
>> they do fail and there is no predicting when, no matter who makes the
>> wheel unit and no matter what it costs, a pot is a pot and will fail.
>> >Trev

Robert Wils

Tsw2

by Robert Wils » Mon, 22 Jun 1998 04:00:00



I'm not sure what issues Andy Cers and Trevor Thomas have with each
other, but for either of them to aim arrows at each other in this
newsgroup shows a lack of professionalism on both sides. And then you
jump in to kick someone who's already getting beat up over something
that's not their fault. Nice move, class act. Bully.

The simple issue in the beginning was a guy claiming that TSW pots suck.
TSW doesn't make the pots, and even Andy acknowledged that the ECCI had a
batch of bad pots from their supplier, so I doubt ECCI makes pots either.
So, both vendors are at the mercy of their pot suppliers. You pay more
for the ECCI so I'd EXPECT it to be a much better piece of machinery than
the others. It better have a best pots on the market for the price.

From my understanding the ECCI and the TSW are not aimed for the same
market. Thrustmaster wheels are not aimed the same market as either ECCI
or TSW. Each product line though is very nice for the target market. They
all fill great needs in the racing community and without any one of them
we would all be at a loss.

In the end, all wheel manufacturers are at the mercy of their pot
supplier. And to keep the price of their wheels reasonable for the market
they are aimed for leads each company to make decisions on who will be
their supplier. It might be unfortunate that one supplier sucks more than
another, but that's the facts of doing big business.

btw: I don't own either an ECCI or a TSW, I own a Thrustmaster GP1, and
it's just like the day I bought it.

Robert

Trevor C Thoma

Tsw2

by Trevor C Thoma » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00


> In the end, all wheel manufacturers are at the mercy of their pot
> supplier. And to keep the price of their wheels reasonable for the market
> they are aimed for leads each company to make decisions on who will be
> their supplier. It might be unfortunate that one supplier sucks more than
> another, but that's the facts of doing big business.

> btw: I don't own either an ECCI or a TSW, I own a Thrustmaster GP1, and
> it's just like the day I bought it.

> Robert

Hi Robert,

Excellent post and points well made :) this is exactly what I was trying
to say, if we wanted to make a device of better quality than the CDS we
could and would do so.

We feel there is no need for overkill and we dont want people to have to
mortgage their house and car to buy a PC game controller, it doesnt make
sense.

We offer a solid quality product at a fair price and back it with a 100%
lifetime warranty, something even the overpriced units dont have the
confidence to offer BTW.

As for the pot issue, ours are fine, these few failures that get public
exposure are a drop in the bucket compared to how many units we sell.
There are many 3 year or more old TSWs out there that have never had a
pot change.

The arrogance of some CDS owners such as Mr White still amazes me but I
suppose there has to be some way of justifying having spent far more
money than needed for a PC *** device<g>!

Trev

Michael Grand

Tsw2

by Michael Grand » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00


>We offer a solid quality product at a fair price and back it with a 100%
>lifetime warranty, something even the overpriced units dont have the
>confidence to offer BTW.

I don't think that confidence is a factor on whether ECCI has a lifetime
warranty or not. The quality and precision with which the units are built is
second to none and in my opinion a so called "lifetime warranty" is not
needed for a product of such quality. A lifetime warranty in my opinion is
just a way to market an item.

Pots are not designed to be fine, they should be designed for precision
applications. As was stated by Andy Ceers, there are many different pots and
they are priced accordingly.

Is it arrogance or is it extremely satisfied customers. As I recall back
when I was interested in purchasing a wheel assembly from Thomas Ent. I was
treated with the same kind of arrogance that you describe. Thats when I
called ECCI and got the treatment that a paying customer deserves. The point
is you get what you pay for and although from what I hear that you make a
fine unit, I can't compare to the precision of an ECCI unit. This is just my
opinion.

Michael Grand

Tsw2

by Michael Grand » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00


>We offer a solid quality product at a fair price and back it with a 100%
>lifetime warranty, something even the overpriced units dont have the
>confidence to offer BTW.

I don't think that confidence is a factor on whether ECCI has a lifetime
warranty or not. The quality and precision with which the units are built is
second to none and in my opinion a so called "lifetime warranty" is not
needed for a product of such quality. A lifetime warranty in my opinion is
just a way to market an item.

Pots are not designed to be fine, they should be designed for precision
applications. As was stated by Andy Ceers, there are many different pots and
they are priced accordingly.

Is it arrogance or is it extremely satisfied customers. As I recall back
when I was interested in purchasing a wheel assembly from Thomas Ent. I was
treated with the same kind of arrogance that you describe. Thats when I
called ECCI and got the treatment that a paying customer deserves. The point
is you get what you pay for and although from what I hear that you make a
fine unit, I can't compare to the precision of an ECCI unit. This is just my
opinion.

Richard Carls

Tsw2

by Richard Carls » Tue, 23 Jun 1998 04:00:00

I can attest to 3 months of heavy TSW 2 use with no pot failure.
They are rock solid when calibrating them, no more "wiggling" on the
axis's (sp?) like my old GP1 did from the start.

Apparently ECCI owners aren't married:) Gee hon, I could use a $1000
steering wheel,  errrr, OK, you can drop the frying pan now.....

Regards,

Rick Carlson


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