rec.autos.simulators

by **Steve Blankenshi** » Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:21:44

>> Spring and Damper Effect Strength 0%

>> Centering Spring Off and 0%

> There's where you're getting into a matter of taste, to me those two
> settings make the wheel feel like an Cadillac Eldorado with the front
> wheels jacked off the ground. There's no simulated "road feel" or
> resistance to turning the wheel.

Art - If you don't feel any resistance or road feel with those settings from
Dave when you're on track, then you must have something else set wrong.
rFactor has a ton of ini settings for FF and you are right that it's easy to
get off course and muck them up. No matter what, the wheel WILL feel light
from rest or somewhat right around the center, but that's mainly a function
of the shortcomings in the physics modeling at low/no speed, and various
means to avoid oscillation around center between iterations of the physics
model. Seems most if not all tire models tend to come up short at very low
speeds unless there's some hack to get around that issue, which has existed
in sims for a long time - you may remember how the cars in GPL would slide
down the track sideways from rest if you just sat still on a banked track,
but would grip fine if rolling, even just. That's why you don't feel the
resistance as being heavy at rest and then easing as you start rolling like
it would in a real car. I've yet to feel any FF setup truly mimic the feel
of a real car, but they are getting better and the G25 has by far the best
FF I've tried to date. I was a non-FF guy until the DFP came out and while
I liked the multi-turn aspect of that one, the FF was still lacking due to
it's slow response. The G25 is way better in that regard and allows much
more subtle things to come through, so if you're not feeling it then I'd say
you've got some ini issues.

SB

by **Asgeir Nesoe** » Fri, 23 Mar 2007 22:36:36

If my wheel feels overly light in the pits, it is not because my
steering lock is too low, no, because the wheel gets very firm as soon
as I start driving. Very firm. I think ISI just didn't focus on
simulating a stand-still car properly with FFB, and I can see why, hehe.

If you just use the manufacturers config and fiddle with the control
panel settings, I'd agree with you about the non-mystery nature of
things, but as soon as you start fiddeling with the controller.ini FFB
settings, things get much more complicated.

---Asgeir---

by **Plowbo** » Fri, 23 Mar 2007 23:50:59

Great info, I didnt elude to the max lock in setups, but I had noticed it
about FF too!.

And that is one of the 1st things I have to do with our fixed setup leagues
(be it NR03 or Rfactor) is to redo the max lock and wheel turn rates/ratio.
with 360 or so, on wheel profile, then in game nascar is easy to drive yet I
have more control of the front wheels now, I love this wheel (g25). Again
where as it seems in the older days we set the max lock down to prevent "too
much turn" is race with our old wheels, then ratio way up to get some "fine
tune" I now have everything opposite, some times I forget and the car can be
a beyotch to drive...

Asgeir Nesoen enlightened us with:

> Not many racing sport vehicles have lock to lock of 900, this would be
> suitable for normal day-to-day car simulation, but who wants to
> simulate driving to work in heavy traffic? Hehe.

> I would say that generally you need to set the max lock to about the
> same lock the simulated car would have. A formula car will have 360,
> but any sports car will have more, I'd guess from 450 to 540. I am
> currently using 450 when racing Megane, and this seems to be about
> right when I compare the wheel lock to RL megane.

> I don't want speed sensitivity at all since it ruins judgment of wheel
> position in relation to steering wheel position. I'd rather go up on
> the max lock so that the steering wheel carries enough accuracy to
> cope with big speeds.

> BTW, the in-game lock setting affects the FFB tremendously, and I am
> generally using the max lock so that my wheel gets the most accurate
> response.

> All this is info that should be present at this website I'm talking
> about, in some form.

> ---A---

>> Asgeir Nesoen enlightened us with:
>>> After getting the G25, and spending quite a few hours on trying to
>>> get this to work properly with the million rFactor controller.ini
>>> variables, I thought that it would be nice to gather all advices,
>>> hints, tips and ini file variable info and setups in a database,
>>> searchable and everything. FFB is quite tricky to get the way you
>>> want it as it is, imagine how things will be with another ten
>>> titles, and another 20 FFB wheel configs.

>>> I imagine uploading controller.ini files so that it is possible to
>>> search up good configs for any given game/controller combo, or even
>>> single variable mean values, and maybe even info on practical button
>>> mappings for a given game. It could all be pulled out of
>>> controller.ini, and it shouldn't be that difficult to make import
>>> routines for any game setup text based file format...

>>> When you have a ton of different settings, it'd be nice to be able
>>> to see what everyone else uses, and how people have set things up.

>>> So, guys, what do you say? Is this something we need?

>>> If I get a firm response to this, I may start creating that
>>> database. ---A---

>> Great Idear A N,

>> My thing is too many people fail to get the basic "control panel"
>> (or in this case, profiler settings) basically setup so that your
>> games will have even half a chance to emulate FF forces...

>> I came to the G25 from the Microsoft FF wheels... Many many people
>> I had helped in the past had the centering spring checked on and
>> many had it at HIGH, well this negated the feedback from games, I
>> found out. once everyone set centering to off, games were good.

>> I setup my wheel after reading all this time and time again over the
>> years, of posts about how to properly set up a momo wheel. Tips
>> like: Setting return to center spring to 0 or 1, yet check the box that
>> enables it.
>> I also followed the dampening to 20% for starters, {as with my
>> Sidewinder I didn't specifically have this "adjustment"} that did
>> get me a balpark setting I could play with.

>> Plus, I set my wheel only to operate at 360 degrees, because my
>> reaction time was soo slow (trying to turn the wheel opposite lock
>> {to recover an oversteer condition, --- when set at what 720 or 900
>> degrees, was what 2 whole turns just back to center? lol.

>> all the above this, was the settings before I even went into rFactor.

>> *** my bad*** if I was at home I could have put these in order of the
>> Logitech profiler config screen the software uses... But I
>> cant recall now.

>> In rFactor, I set my sensitivity to 100%. & Speed sensitivity down
>> to 3% (some cushion just so I dont do tank slappers at 200 mph so
>> easily). now the tires can turn full lock even when going over 90
>> mph... can help you recover a loose condition on dirt racing
>> tracks, you know... Then in the game I found I like the FF set to FULL,
>> and then inside
>> the game, after I set most of the pedals and buttons I like to use,
>> I had to go in and set the feedback forces set to -150% because my
>> wheel was giving me opposite feedback from same setups I had been
>> using with my Sidewinder (not centering on camber/castor forces
>> applied from chassis). In other words my wheel would do opposite of
>> trying to center, but instead loved to be anywhere but near the
>> center, be it full right or full left... I remark it was as if they
>> had put a pretty strong magent on the wheel and the base, both
>> facing the same "poles" right at each other, when centered... I feel if I
>> set the wheel to operate with more turns than 360 I
>> cannot recover those instances of oversteer, because you cannot turn
>> the wheel fast enough to change the direction of the steering,
>> physically. you only have a few hundredths of a second to turn
>> right and catch a stock car, I assume less in an F1 type car.

>> but I run totally AIDS free, even clutch help or auto is off.

by **mcewen** » Sat, 24 Mar 2007 05:49:48

On Mar 22, 9:21 am, "Steve Blankenship"

> The G25 is way better in that regard and allows much
> more subtle things to come through, so if you're not feeling it then I'd say
> you've got some ini issues.

Good thing Asgeir's creating a database then ;)

I made them 25% and felt more resistance, not sure if it's real road
feel or just constant resistance, but it felt more natural then zero.
BTW I'm talking about at racing speeds, specifically the esses
(excluding curbing) and first long straight at watkins glen.

by **Dave** » Sat, 24 Mar 2007 06:10:31

Don't fiddle with the ini then. :-) Use the settings I posted (or close to
them) and then concentrate on setup. Some of those messing around with the
ini are probably looking for some magic settings that will make them faster.
It's not going to happen.

--
David G Fisher

> If my wheel feels overly light in the pits, it is not because my steering
> lock is too low, no, because the wheel gets very firm as soon as I start
> driving. Very firm. I think ISI just didn't focus on simulating a
> stand-still car properly with FFB, and I can see why, hehe.

> If you just use the manufacturers config and fiddle with the control panel
> settings, I'd agree with you about the non-mystery nature of things, but
> as soon as you start fiddeling with the controller.ini FFB settings,
> things get much more complicated.

> ---Asgeir---

>> If your wheel feels overly light in the pits, it's because your steering
>> lock is too low.

>> It's really not much of a mystery what works and what doesn't IMO.

by **Asgeir Nesoe** » Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:02:14

Faster? Oh no, I am fast enough, I just want to get the most information
possible from the wheel.

And besides, that won't make me faster, it will make me more consistent.

And when I have cashed out to get a G25, it'd be foolish of me to
abstain from making the experience even richer and more detailed.

---A---

by **Asgeir Nesoe** » Tue, 27 Mar 2007 22:07:22

Can you specify what you can adjust and what you can't when using "fixed
setup" on a server?

I would *think* that most people would want their own customized combo
of max lock in-game and out-of-game, since people have different
steering equipment, and different preferences.

---A---

> Great info, I didnt elude to the max lock in setups, but I had noticed it
> about FF too!.

> And that is one of the 1st things I have to do with our fixed setup leagues
> (be it NR03 or Rfactor) is to redo the max lock and wheel turn rates/ratio.
> with 360 or so, on wheel profile, then in game nascar is easy to drive yet I
> have more control of the front wheels now, I love this wheel (g25). Again
> where as it seems in the older days we set the max lock down to prevent "too
> much turn" is race with our old wheels, then ratio way up to get some "fine
> tune" I now have everything opposite, some times I forget and the car can be
> a beyotch to drive...

> Asgeir Nesoen enlightened us with:
>> Not many racing sport vehicles have lock to lock of 900, this would be
>> suitable for normal day-to-day car simulation, but who wants to
>> simulate driving to work in heavy traffic? Hehe.

>> I would say that generally you need to set the max lock to about the
>> same lock the simulated car would have. A formula car will have 360,
>> but any sports car will have more, I'd guess from 450 to 540. I am
>> currently using 450 when racing Megane, and this seems to be about
>> right when I compare the wheel lock to RL megane.

>> I don't want speed sensitivity at all since it ruins judgment of wheel
>> position in relation to steering wheel position. I'd rather go up on
>> the max lock so that the steering wheel carries enough accuracy to
>> cope with big speeds.

>> BTW, the in-game lock setting affects the FFB tremendously, and I am
>> generally using the max lock so that my wheel gets the most accurate
>> response.

>> All this is info that should be present at this website I'm talking
>> about, in some form.

>> ---A---

>>> Asgeir Nesoen enlightened us with:
>>>> After getting the G25, and spending quite a few hours on trying to
>>>> get this to work properly with the million rFactor controller.ini
>>>> variables, I thought that it would be nice to gather all advices,
>>>> hints, tips and ini file variable info and setups in a database,
>>>> searchable and everything. FFB is quite tricky to get the way you
>>>> want it as it is, imagine how things will be with another ten
>>>> titles, and another 20 FFB wheel configs.

>>>> I imagine uploading controller.ini files so that it is possible to
>>>> search up good configs for any given game/controller combo, or even
>>>> single variable mean values, and maybe even info on practical button
>>>> mappings for a given game. It could all be pulled out of
>>>> controller.ini, and it shouldn't be that difficult to make import
>>>> routines for any game setup text based file format...

>>>> When you have a ton of different settings, it'd be nice to be able
>>>> to see what everyone else uses, and how people have set things up.

>>>> So, guys, what do you say? Is this something we need?

>>>> If I get a firm response to this, I may start creating that
>>>> database. ---A---
>>> Great Idear A N,

>>> My thing is too many people fail to get the basic "control panel"
>>> (or in this case, profiler settings) basically setup so that your
>>> games will have even half a chance to emulate FF forces...

>>> I came to the G25 from the Microsoft FF wheels... Many many people
>>> I had helped in the past had the centering spring checked on and
>>> many had it at HIGH, well this negated the feedback from games, I
>>> found out. once everyone set centering to off, games were good.

>>> I setup my wheel after reading all this time and time again over the
>>> years, of posts about how to properly set up a momo wheel. Tips
>>> like: Setting return to center spring to 0 or 1, yet check the box that
>>> enables it.
>>> I also followed the dampening to 20% for starters, {as with my
>>> Sidewinder I didn't specifically have this "adjustment"} that did
>>> get me a balpark setting I could play with.

>>> Plus, I set my wheel only to operate at 360 degrees, because my
>>> reaction time was soo slow (trying to turn the wheel opposite lock
>>> {to recover an oversteer condition, --- when set at what 720 or 900
>>> degrees, was what 2 whole turns just back to center? lol.

>>> all the above this, was the settings before I even went into rFactor.

>>> *** my bad*** if I was at home I could have put these in order of the
>>> Logitech profiler config screen the software uses... But I
>>> cant recall now.

>>> In rFactor, I set my sensitivity to 100%. & Speed sensitivity down
>>> to 3% (some cushion just so I dont do tank slappers at 200 mph so
>>> easily). now the tires can turn full lock even when going over 90
>>> mph... can help you recover a loose condition on dirt racing
>>> tracks, you know... Then in the game I found I like the FF set to FULL,
>>> and then inside
>>> the game, after I set most of the pedals and buttons I like to use,
>>> I had to go in and set the feedback forces set to -150% because my
>>> wheel was giving me opposite feedback from same setups I had been
>>> using with my Sidewinder (not centering on camber/castor forces
>>> applied from chassis). In other words my wheel would do opposite of
>>> trying to center, but instead loved to be anywhere but near the
>>> center, be it full right or full left... I remark it was as if they
>>> had put a pretty strong magent on the wheel and the base, both
>>> facing the same "poles" right at each other, when centered... I feel if I
>>> set the wheel to operate with more turns than 360 I
>>> cannot recover those instances of oversteer, because you cannot turn
>>> the wheel fast enough to change the direction of the steering,
>>> physically. you only have a few hundredths of a second to turn
>>> right and catch a stock car, I assume less in an F1 type car.

>>> but I run totally AIDS free, even clutch help or auto is off.

by **==--=** » Wed, 28 Mar 2007 06:56:28

Steering Ratio "is" adjustable with fixed setup :)

==--==

> Can you specify what you can adjust and what you can't when using "fixed
> setup" on a server?

> I would *think* that most people would want their own customized combo of
> max lock in-game and out-of-game, since people have different steering
> equipment, and different preferences.

> ---A---

>> Great info, I didnt elude to the max lock in setups, but I had noticed it
>> about FF too!.

>> And that is one of the 1st things I have to do with our fixed setup
>> leagues (be it NR03 or Rfactor) is to redo the max lock and wheel turn
>> rates/ratio. with 360 or so, on wheel profile, then in game nascar is
>> easy to drive yet I have more control of the front wheels now, I love
>> this wheel (g25). Again where as it seems in the older days we set the
>> max lock down to prevent "too much turn" is race with our old wheels,
>> then ratio way up to get some "fine tune" I now have everything opposite,
>> some times I forget and the car can be a beyotch to drive...

>> Asgeir Nesoen enlightened us with:
>>> Not many racing sport vehicles have lock to lock of 900, this would be
>>> suitable for normal day-to-day car simulation, but who wants to
>>> simulate driving to work in heavy traffic? Hehe.

>>> I would say that generally you need to set the max lock to about the
>>> same lock the simulated car would have. A formula car will have 360,
>>> but any sports car will have more, I'd guess from 450 to 540. I am
>>> currently using 450 when racing Megane, and this seems to be about
>>> right when I compare the wheel lock to RL megane.

>>> I don't want speed sensitivity at all since it ruins judgment of wheel
>>> position in relation to steering wheel position. I'd rather go up on
>>> the max lock so that the steering wheel carries enough accuracy to
>>> cope with big speeds.

>>> BTW, the in-game lock setting affects the FFB tremendously, and I am
>>> generally using the max lock so that my wheel gets the most accurate
>>> response.

>>> All this is info that should be present at this website I'm talking
>>> about, in some form.

>>> ---A---

>>>> Asgeir Nesoen enlightened us with:
>>>>> After getting the G25, and spending quite a few hours on trying to
>>>>> get this to work properly with the million rFactor controller.ini
>>>>> variables, I thought that it would be nice to gather all advices,
>>>>> hints, tips and ini file variable info and setups in a database,
>>>>> searchable and everything. FFB is quite tricky to get the way you
>>>>> want it as it is, imagine how things will be with another ten
>>>>> titles, and another 20 FFB wheel configs.

>>>>> I imagine uploading controller.ini files so that it is possible to
>>>>> search up good configs for any given game/controller combo, or even
>>>>> single variable mean values, and maybe even info on practical button
>>>>> mappings for a given game. It could all be pulled out of
>>>>> controller.ini, and it shouldn't be that difficult to make import
>>>>> routines for any game setup text based file format...

>>>>> When you have a ton of different settings, it'd be nice to be able
>>>>> to see what everyone else uses, and how people have set things up.

>>>>> So, guys, what do you say? Is this something we need?

>>>>> If I get a firm response to this, I may start creating that
>>>>> database. ---A---
>>>> Great Idear A N,

>>>> My thing is too many people fail to get the basic "control panel"
>>>> (or in this case, profiler settings) basically setup so that your
>>>> games will have even half a chance to emulate FF forces...

>>>> I came to the G25 from the Microsoft FF wheels... Many many people
>>>> I had helped in the past had the centering spring checked on and
>>>> many had it at HIGH, well this negated the feedback from games, I
>>>> found out. once everyone set centering to off, games were good.

>>>> I setup my wheel after reading all this time and time again over the
>>>> years, of posts about how to properly set up a momo wheel. Tips
>>>> like: Setting return to center spring to 0 or 1, yet check the box that
>>>> enables it.
>>>> I also followed the dampening to 20% for starters, {as with my
>>>> Sidewinder I didn't specifically have this "adjustment"} that did
>>>> get me a balpark setting I could play with.

>>>> Plus, I set my wheel only to operate at 360 degrees, because my
>>>> reaction time was soo slow (trying to turn the wheel opposite lock
>>>> {to recover an oversteer condition, --- when set at what 720 or 900
>>>> degrees, was what 2 whole turns just back to center? lol.

>>>> all the above this, was the settings before I even went into rFactor.

>>>> *** my bad*** if I was at home I could have put these in order of the
>>>> Logitech profiler config screen the software uses... But I
>>>> cant recall now.

>>>> In rFactor, I set my sensitivity to 100%. & Speed sensitivity down
>>>> to 3% (some cushion just so I dont do tank slappers at 200 mph so
>>>> easily). now the tires can turn full lock even when going over 90
>>>> mph... can help you recover a loose condition on dirt racing
>>>> tracks, you know... Then in the game I found I like the FF set to FULL,
>>>> and then inside
>>>> the game, after I set most of the pedals and buttons I like to use,
>>>> I had to go in and set the feedback forces set to -150% because my
>>>> wheel was giving me opposite feedback from same setups I had been
>>>> using with my Sidewinder (not centering on camber/castor forces
>>>> applied from chassis). In other words my wheel would do opposite of
>>>> trying to center, but instead loved to be anywhere but near the
>>>> center, be it full right or full left... I remark it was as if they
>>>> had put a pretty strong magent on the wheel and the base, both
>>>> facing the same "poles" right at each other, when centered... I feel if
>>>> I set the wheel to operate with more turns than 360 I
>>>> cannot recover those instances of oversteer, because you cannot turn
>>>> the wheel fast enough to change the direction of the steering,
>>>> physically. you only have a few hundredths of a second to turn
>>>> right and catch a stock car, I assume less in an F1 type car.

>>>> but I run totally AIDS free, even clutch help or auto is off.

by **Plowbo** » Wed, 28 Mar 2007 12:51:08

I am not positive now, but I believe you can adjust controls, IE steering
lock, and brake pressure to pedal setting (ie 100% 98, etc on full push on
the pedals).

Im runing SCE .098 and I know it is differnt in many aspects than the NROS,
that I tried... My shifter wont operate correctly in NROS but it is perfect
in any other mod so far (as in when I shift to neutral, it stays in last
gear selected in NROS, not the other mods...)