rec.autos.simulators

If you have the time please fill in the following question and e-mail
it back to us.  We have started on the design of a new high-end
joystick that I think most of you hard-core gamers will appreciate.
With your help maybe we can whip out a stick that is worthy of your
use without the need of taking out a loan to get it.  

Since this is in an open forum, if any of the you who respond wish to
hear about the accumulated results we will be glad to pass them to
you.

Feel free to post your response in the newsgroups, but please also
send a copy to us via e-mail so that your input will be put to use.

Thanks beforehand for your response. Now for the question:

.
.
.

If you could change anything about your current joystick, what would
it be? (Please provide the name of your current stick and explain why)
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We will keep a list of you who helped for some kind of discount or
benefit in the future.  Again, thank you for your time.

-Rich

We should have a permanent domain soon. Until then try the page bellow
for updated information.
--
Richard Rice
----------------------------------------------
JAG Technologies
http://www.racesimcentral.net/~rokker [temporary]

I have at present, seven, yes seven, different  joysticks in my
computer room, that I have to chop & change as I change games.

2 x Digital Joysticks (2-button)  for games like Sensible Soccer,
Zool, and a couple of platform games.

2 x Analogue Joysticks (2-button)  for games like X-Wing, Actua
Soccer, NHL Hockey)

2 x Joy Pads (4-button) for games like Pitfall 95, and
FX Fighter.

1 x Flightstick (2 button + Trigger) for the flight Sims.

Now I have aquired these over time, but I still think that it's a bit
excessive, but even with all of those, I still have to play
Mechwarrior 2 on the Keyboard!!

I can understand that there has to be two different types of joystick
(Digital / Analogue), but I would like to see one that could be easily
programmed, and that has plenty of buttons. I used to have a neat
joystick interface on my ZX Spectrum, that allowed me to map the
Keysboard to any thing on the Joystick (Can't remember what it was
called though) I don't know of anything like that on the PC.

My Dream Joystick would be the following :

Analogue stick Joystick
10+ Configurable Buttons
Thumb Control HUD Hat control Thingy (Or Whatever they are called)
Easily configurable, to map to any key on the keyboard.
Inexpensive.

Digital Joystick
6+ Buttons.
Sturdy Shaft (Oo-er!)
Again, Easily Configurable.
Inexpensive.

What I would l

Make sure that the hat switch doesn't have to multiplex with the
fire buttons!

I've tried a few sticks like that and they drive me nuts!
(I think it's the "CH Flightstick Pro" type setup.)

MOST IMPORTANT IN MY MIND-->>>
Make the hat switch SOLID!!!  No flimsy cheap plastic stem.  Use some
sort of metal with a base that won't break.  I've had 4 sticks die due
to broken hats.
I use the hat to slide/accel/decel in decent -- it takes some stress.
Hats are not just for view changes anymore.

Fire buttons should be easily accessible with free fingers.  You
should not have to use the same finger for multiple buttons.
(Thrustmaster did this pretty well with the FCS and XL -- a trigger and
"pinky" button allow you to use two different ones at once.  Perhaps
a third button on the shaft?)

Don't make the stick too short (like the Gravis Thunderbird).

If you have a throttle, perhaps have an option/switch to make it
spring-centered.  (Do others want this?  It would be nice to be able to
"feel" where the center position is.)

HEAVY base, and/or suction cups.

-- Scott

I would suggest that really all you need is 2 controllers at all. The
MS Sidewinder 3D Pro handles just about everything I play from Mech2 to
ATF....as for sports games A four button gravis pad does quite nicely
and is great for Street Fighter II tournament edition.
-Mitch

I've tried a few joysticks but remain with mouse+keybd for Doom/Descent etc.  The reason being that with ANY
joystick out there I still have to use the keyboard to control movement.  It would be fine if I only had to use the
keybd to set things (weapons, etc...).

Don't know what the real difference is between analog and digital so I can't comment there.  But:

3D rotation like the MS Sidwinder seems truly innovative.

More buttons for the fingers!  Remember the old Colecovision "joything" that had a different button for each of 4
fingers?  That would be great!  Perhaps just three though.

How about a shape-fit base for my other hand!  So then I'd just grab on to this thing and have TOTAL control.  After
all, that's what we really want, no?

DT

    I guess the joystick depends alot o the game.  Woth MW2 I fing
using the mouse for torso twisting and firing quite good, while using
the keyboard for other stuff.  Except for annoying hand switches...
    For most other games, I like my Suncom SFX gamepad.  I hate to
sound like an adverti***t, but if you haven't seen it you should
check it out.  It's got 8 buttons and you can program them all to
emulate keyboard strokes, with memory for 4 groups of settings.  It's
great for side-view fighters like MK3, sports games, and 3D shooters
like Descent.  With all those buttons, you rarely need the keyboard.

Greg

Leo

If you could change anything about your current joystick, what would
 it be? (Please provide the name of your current stick and explain why)

I currently have a Microsoft Sidewinder 3D Pro.  I am very satisfied with it, with the
following exceptions:
I wish it had an adjustable non linear range.  I find it way to sensitive in the
center, I wish it was a little less so.  Would make aiming easier.  (I think)

I also wish it had more tension.  And the further out it goes the harder it
should resist.

Ans last I wish the throttle and twist controls were definable.  Neither goes quite to
the game's limit.

Nerf

I own 4 joysticks, 2 game pads, a throttle, and a t1 driving system.
The best control combination, by far, are the Suncom Talon and a CH pro
throttle. The only thing that comes close is the Thrustmaster series. The
reason I didn't go with the Thrustmaster sticks, is that my sticks are
abused. I have a two and four year old with no concept of "take it easy".
This stick and throttle are VERY solidly constructed. The Suncom Talon has
four buttons and two hats. These are all programmable, and they have four
different user definable presets that you can change on the fly, even in the
middle of the game, and finally a normal joystick mode. The ProThrottle has
four buttons, and four 4 direction hats. All of these are user definable with
ANY key on the keyboard, or macro. The only limit to the size of the macro is
the memory in the throttle (I think this is 1KB). My current Descent 2 config
only uses about 20% of the mem in the throttle and I have every button
defined. The throttle has unlimited configs (they are stored as small files)
that are loaded up before the start of a game. The grand total is 6 4-way
hats, and 8 buttons of programmable power.

                                Kev

        P.S. Another relatively cheap tip if you have a chair with arm rests.
I have built a small platform on each of my chairs armrests (a friend of mine
calls them wings). My stick rests on the right and my throttle on the left. I
attached these sticks to the platforms with velcro. I can sit in the chair
(feet up :) ), and use my sticks with both arms on the armrests. Now if I
could just convince my wife to feed me while I play I would never have to
leave my chair. My $.02.

Dear Rich & JAG Tech:

: it be? (Please provide the name of your current stick and explain why)
: -----------------------------------------------------------------------
        I have had:
ThrustMaster    WCS II
                FCS I
                THX(sp? It's like FCS but looks more like CH Pro)
Gravis Analog Advanced
CH FlightStick Pro
Gravis Gamepad
Street Fighter pad
        Currently holding:
ThrustMaster TQS + FLCS + RCS
        IMHO today's games highly demand at lesat two joysticks, more
precisely, joystick and throttle.  If one absoultely can only afford/have
one, then it's the joystick.  Due to the complex nature of PC game, and
increasing in PC hardware and software technology, the joystick must be
be programmable.  I am not sure if user friendly is that big of a deal.  
For myself, been a *** flight simmer, I am willing to put up with
lost of $ and effort to come up with the best settings, and
ThrustMaster's coding worked just fine with me.  Though I sometimes spend
more time programming (due to lack of good sticks until I got TQS & RCS),
then I play certain games.  
        Enough about myself, as far as I can see improvement:
1)  Long lasting life, OR excellent customer service. TM belongs to the
second group, as my F16FLCS has broekn its base ring in a year, and I
have heard numerous smilar stories from others.  However, their unmatched
customer service is unmatched, when you can reach them that is.  My email
to them went unanswered for like few times, until I managed to reach them
via WEB. But once I did, they were great.  Free replacement and S/H.  
Similar thing happend to a friend of mine too.  At any rate, I wish their
things could last longer.  After all, I am only 5'7" and weighs in 110lbs
range so the possiblity of me "cranking" down the joystick is pretty slim.

2)  Types for various people:  There're differnet people out there, and
some just want a cheap, durable, and carries moderate features for games,
while there're others like me who are really hard core flight simmemers
and won't settle for anythign less than absoulte, ok, maybe onte
absoulte, but as close as possilbe realism.  That means throttle, stick,
rudder, and possilbely virtual I/O glaesses,***pit/mount, vibration
vests, voice-control devices, etc.  One thing I have noticed that is the
FCS fited my hand very well, but I have heard others complaining it's bit
small; then when I got FLCS it's almost too big, I'd have a hard time to
reach both the plinky button and the top hat or thumb buttons, yet I
heard others claiming the "larger size is definatley more fitting."  
While I can see it's not econmic for a company producing joystick for
various sizes, the fact can't be changed that some people would find
certain stick more fitting than others.  I wish we have those "liquid
metal" these days to make joystick customer fit...enough draems.  Also,
notice the main point of this is that we can never satisfy everybody with
a single joystick.  So either we are going for a compromise, or we need
have different models for various needs, which seem to be what CH is
doing currently.

3)  Here is the real issues: buttons.  How many is enough? Where do you
want them? I guess there's no true answer.  However, for those "realism"
people, it never hurts to copy the real military device(assume they don't
sue for copy rights).  I mean, I am still wondering if my F16FLCS/TQS are
REALLY what Block 50 F16C's are like, and I'd love to konw just exactly
are each button for on the real plane so I can program my f16 sims, and
possilbe rest to the identical functions.  One intresting thing: from
footage I have seen on PBS shows, seems all the non F16 fighters uses
stick simlar to SunCom sticks, while F16's stick was very unique on its
own with joystick button setup, physical shape, and its location (on the
side).  So on one hand, it never hurts to just copy the military model
thus achiving "true realism".  While on the other hand, we can also be
creative and make our own, and here is all the posslbities come from.  
Even with my current set up, I feel I am few button short at times for
latest games such as EF2000 or ATF.  Yeah yeah, I know, I shouldn't even
dreaming about program EVERYTHING on them and achieve absoute HOTAS.  But
you know, that's what joystick are kind for.  And even if I just go for
combat keys they aren't enough in the case of EF2k.  Yet with FLCS it
seem we are apporachign to the limit of human fingers.  Don't you wish
God made us having 10 fingers on each hand?  Anyway, what I was thinking
was making some "panels" just like in real planes.  You know, the dials,
and buttons and so on that actually controls things like communications,
HUD modes, landing gears, radio freqs(some of those are built into
today's military HOTAS system).  Etc, this way we can still achieve
semi-HOTAS, while not have to worry about adding more buttons/switchs so
we can fit all keys in the stick.

4)  Price is not that of a big issue to me.  I like many other FLCS/other
TM product owners feels they worth every single $.  Sure, they cost me an
arm and leg, esp consider many of us are college students, squeezing
every penny to just paying off our tution bills.  But then for the
uncompared expereince and with either superior durablity or good service,
we can expect it to actually LAST many years, after our favorite games
are obslete/bored, we'd still using them for other things...right now I
am try to make my TM hardware comptabilty with the MUX I am playing... :)

5)  Oh, here is a REAL big thing:  upgradabilty.  Making things modular
and easy to change. Ie. the FLCS that I mentioned had the base ring
broke, it took me THREE hours to figure out how to install the damn
thing, and I am still not sure if I done it rihgt or not.  And I am an
Engineer! Well, an EE student anyway, and I thought I was smart :)  But I
found out I couldn't just disaemble the stick since all the wires are
connected, nor can I install the base ring from its rectangular base.  So
the only option came down to from top...and I figured I out that I could
pull those buttons/switchs off the FLCS, and the next 2 hrs I was having
a hell of a time try to figure out if it really takes that much effort to
press and BEND The ring in order to fit it down there.  Ohmigod, I was so
afraid I'd brake things that I was totaly in angony.  Then when dinner
was cold I finally couldnt' take it anymore and went for it...and mind
you, even with the determination I had it wasn't easy as the F16 handle
base was rather odd shaped and the ring can go in either way, by tilting
forward or back, and I tilt it forward and managed to littery squeeze it in.
Anywya, back to modular: TM sticks are known to have different version of
chips.  (In fact the problem of mine and lot people's TQS RNG/ANT button
can NOT generate RAW scan codes right now wi the chips we have).  Anyway,
if the joysticks are designed in such an way that makes future upgrade
possible, so you can just install a new upper handle, or a new chip so
you get those extra buttons, or those new key features (I want my RNG/ANT
able to be type 3 devices, and able to have key toggle like /H /T etc!).
        OK, I think that about to sum it up. Sorry to make it so long
folks :) But like Sun-Tze says "More is always betteter than less" :)
                                Ming "Falcon" Liu

I have a basic CH Flightstick (not even a pro).  I like it, but the *only*
reason I haven't bought a newer, fancier stick is that virtually NONE of them
are for lefthanders (me).  The only lefty stick I've seen (can't remember
which one) didn't seem very good (control positions sucked).

The funny thing is, most (not all) joystick companies are NOT doing their
research, since it is estimates that more than 50% of joystick users are
lefthanded (much higher than the typical 10% lefties in the general
population).  So, by only making only a right-handed stick, you're
effectively reducing your potential sales, buy up to 50% in the worst case.

What stick makers need to do is create a control array that is switchable
between left and right, without having to buy two different sticks.  I looked
at the Microsoft stick (with three of my lefty friends), and we noticed that
it wouldn't take all that much to re-design the controls so that sculpted
handle could be exchanged out for a lefty one, without any change to the
buttons, switches, or the base unit.

There's my two left cents!
Doug.

:>t
:>joystick interface on my ZX Spectrum, that allowed me to map the
:>Keysboard to any thing on the Joystick (Can't remember what it was
:>called though) I don't know of anything like that on the PC.

The Gravis Pheonix, Firebird ones are keyboard mappable. 24 and 17 buttons
respectively.

Jack

--

Jack Christensen

I throw rocks through windows!

I have tried many joysticks. The best one is Sidewinder Pro from
Microsoft. Some flaws I can say that it is too light in weight, Stick
response is not heavy enough.
If you want some idea on steering wheel, I like T2 and the only thing I
want more is active power response system.

Regards,
Kenny Law